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Jolyon Palmer's Analysis: Data showing Tsunoda and Gasly didn't lift at all when passing through Verstappen's crash

Jolyon Palmer's Analysis: Data showing Tsunoda and Gasly didn't lift at all when passing through Verstappen's crash

seemslgt

I don’t understand how a car on the track with a wheel knocked off and debris scattered around (both lance and max) doesn’t bring out an immediate vsc or safety car. This isn’t like a small spin where the driver will clear the hazard in a matter of time.


Greatdrift

Same, and it’s on a street circuit too!


bob237189

On the fastest stretch of track on the calendar


Noofnoof

The race director has to be alert on a street circuit.


klaaz0r

This, I already posted this on another thread. But on a street circuit if you see a crash you can with out a doubt just smash that VSC button and see what would be a good follow up action, full SC or red flag. You don't need time to see "Well is that car in a safe place?" it's not, it's a street circuit you will always need a VSC as a minimum


Vaderic

Right? Pull a yellow flag when someone spins and gets in an awkward position or something, but to treat an actual accident, one that scattered debris all over and left the driver stranded on the track, with only a yellow flag, that's a fucking joke. Not excusing Tsunoda and Gasly, they fucked up, but regardless, race director showed quite some disregard for safety by taking his sweet ass time to decide what to do under just a yellow flag. Edit: I cannot type for the life of me.


dave_a86

In my opinion the race director should approach double waved yellow flags with the mindset that it’s always a VSC at a minimum unless they can justify otherwise. If a driver goes down an escape road or has a spin, but is still running without damage then that justifies leaving it to the flags and boards as the incident will be over in 10-15 seconds. Pretty much anything else will require some sort of intervention and should be a VSC. It’s unreasonable to leave it up to the drivers to lift when the acceptable amount is so subjective. They’re always going to argue that they did enough and point to other incidents which would make the stewards job impossible as they’ll be accused of inconsistency.


Suicide_anal_bomber

i swear they completely forgot that VSC even exists for a second there. that should have been immediate VSC then safety car then red flag if needed.


PunjabiPlaya

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/nuxgyo/127s_the_time_that_could_have_cost_a_life_a/


Oxygen8

Hamilton immediately asks if he’s okay and they continue to go balls to the wall. Ruthless.


Fun-Ad9829

Safety shouldn't be up to the drivers because they will take the risk. It's up to the people running the sport


Maddog_vt

Masi can complain all he wants about not lifting, but if he’d push the VSC button immediately drivers would have slowed down.


GlowStickEmpire

I can understand not penalizing drivers who did lift even if it wasn't technically "enough." There's not really any precedent for it. Palmer's talked about drivers doing the tiniest of lifts and getting away with it for years. And with how the regulations are written, there's not a clear line to determine who did and did not slow enough. But not lifting at all is pretty clear. And Kimi was given a 10 sec stop and go and three penalty points for it in 2017. There's precedent for at least that.


je_te_jure

So apparently Kimi just doesn't give a fuck. It's a shame that Palmer didn't analyze his data too, because I think it would be even worse than Yuki, he was even slipstreaming Alonso


Fortzon

He didn't lift when he went through the smoke at Spa in 2002. Racers don't lift if they're not told to. And at Baku racers like Seb and Charles "lifted" to try to argue their way out of any possible penalties due to a technicality.


Disenchanted11

>He didn't lift when he went through the smoke at Spa in 2002 I see it like in the movies, it's either he gets through it or he catch all of it situation. That's why he decided to go through


metao

For Kimi, lifting vs not lifting - no difference in outcome if he crashes, but time wasted if he lifts. Easy to decide what to do. For Baku, with flags out, debris, and Max getting out of the car, it's a slightly different situation.


Thomas_Catthew

Kimi didn't lift because there weren't any yellow flags (for whatever god awful reason, it's a big crash risk).


javiazarphoto

If you're the director and you want drivers to slow down there's this thing called Virtual Safety Car, which apparently Michael Masi doesn't know exists.


Trevor_Trevorburg

Or there’s a thing called a yellow flag, which universally means “slow down” which Tsunoda and Gasly obviously blatantly ignored. This one is on them. Somewhere along the line we allowed adult humans who have shown they are capable of using good judgement to use bad excuses and feigned ignorance to get away with not using their good judgement so once we stop doing that, it kinda solves itself from there. My shitty local track, and most shitty local tracks for that matter, is able to control its drivers and their speed under yellow flag conditions without a safety car or a mandated maximum speed and some of those drivers aren’t even adults. There’s no reason Formula 1 should have any trouble.


Arcakoin

Universally is not even strong enough. I mean, they teach you that when you go do some karting for fun on the week end with your family.


bigfoot_3254

I genuinely don't understand how it took them so long to react to the crash. Why are we waiting for the race director anyway? Surely we can use telemetry data to detect a crash and automatically deploy VSC. Or at least sound an alarm to wake the sleeping race directors.


blehmann1

No. They'll only slow down with a red flag. Or Bernie's fucking sprinkler system.


javiazarphoto

>Or Bernie's fucking sprinkler system. I still think this is a genius idea.


404merrinessnotfound

> Kimi was given a 10 sec stop and go and three penalty points for it in 2017. There's precedent for at least that. That was under a different race director though


thereddaikon

Enforcement shouldn't vary based on the race director. It should be fair and consistent based on the rules of the sport. They've already earned one black eye this season due to confusing and inconsistent track limits.


404merrinessnotfound

It shouldn’t but it does. Case in point the glaring lack of usage for virtual safety car this season


MuelNado

Is there any punishment expected for these guys or is it going to be a warning to everyone (as Masi suggested) do we think? Was the radio call about Tsunoda not lifting to the FIA that we heard on the TV about the Verstappen crash or the Stroll one? It was from a McLaren guy on the pit wall wasn't it?


MugshotMarley

The mclaren guy said for both double yellows (stroll & max)


KRNreddit

Normally penalties are given within 24 hours of a race finishing.... I fear Masi is just going to let the drivers off again as usual


Rain08

>I fear Masi is just going to let the drivers off again as usual It's really odd considering [12 drivers were investigated and have been given a warning because of Mugello's SC restart crash last year (PDF)](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_46_-_2020_tuscan_grand_prix_-_decision_-_race_restart.pdf). I mean, Mika Salo was also a steward in both Mugello 2020 and Baku 2021, but somehow he doesn't (and anyone else in race control) deem any drivers should be investigated for their unsafe actions regarding Max's crash.


TheRobidog

Stewards generally only look into the incidents referred to them by the race director. They can choose to investigate something by themselves, but I'd find it somewhat understandable that they wouldn't go against Masi's judgement and do that, in this case.


Budpets

Is the only way to have the FIA investigated to sue them?


modernvoyager-

Teams could take it to CAS, but no teams have filed a protest or suggested they intend to file a protest.


umbrella_CO

Also considering they are the red bull junior team I doubt red bull ever brings it to the FIA as a formal complaint


Thomas_Catthew

Because why would they? It's to everyone's advantage if they're allowed to ignore double waved yellows and the race director only issues warnings for it.


sirChanchi

It's to everyone's advantage until somebody dies


OrbisAlius

Because this is the most overdone argument ever : drivers who act as counseling stewards (or whatever the real name is) do *not* have power to decide which penalties are handed out and whether a penalty is given or not. They're here in a *consultative* role for the actual stewards, meaning they get to say their opinion and "enlighten" the stewards about a driver's point of view of the incident, but they don't have any actual power and the stewards have a 0% obligation of listening to their opinion.


SonicsLV

> as counseling stewards (or whatever the real name is) Because there is no counseling stewards at all. The driver is part of the stewards team. Yes they expected to bring drivers perspective into consideration, but they have equal voice in the team to decision. Obviously they can't handed out penalties just by themselves, since the stewards works as a team and any judgement need to be a consensus reached by the team, but saying they don't have power is also wrong.


Doyle524

Sure Gasly and Tsunoda were bad, but they just had the double yellows directly in front of Verstappen's car on the blind side of the straight - they should have slowed anyway, but it's at least plausible that they didn't see the flags, and IMO would deserve a similar punishment to everybody who didn't slow sufficiently (e.g. everybody but Pérez, Hamilton, Schumacher, and Mazepin), namely, a stop and go penalty and between three and five penalty points. Räikkönen and Giovinazzi had the fucking digital boards and double yellows all the way before the kink and still refused to lift. If you're telling me there's no goddamn punishment for that blatant of a disregard for rules or safety, which to me is clearly deserving of a race ban at minimum, that's absurd.


jesterx7769

Not seeing flags isn’t a valid excuse as we learned last year in Italy with Lewis and the other driver entering pit when it was closed Drivers are briefed on where they are located I think there’s also a difference between “not lifting enough” like masi said everyone was guilty of, or not lifting at all like these two did Between things like this and not going to red flags it seems they don’t care until we have another unfortunate accident again


Doyle524

Of course there isn't an excuse for not seeing yellow flags. But not seeing [this one](https://i.redd.it/owporqi2na471.jpg) is deserving of a grid drop and penalty points, while not seeing [this one](https://i.redd.it/fzn2prijoa471.jpg) is deserving of a race ban.


rollinryanrollin

They get flags on steering wheel. And flags are positioned so that they are not obstructed or hidden.


Doyle524

>They get flags on steering wheel. They do once the flag is relayed from the marshal post at the scene (which displayed double yellows a bit under 5 seconds after Verstappen crashed) to the marshal post at the beginning of the marshaling sector, which for whatever reason didn't happen [until Alonso was approaching the marshaling sector (somewhere around 20 seconds after Verstappen crashed)](https://i.redd.it/fzn2prijoa471.jpg) - that's the first moment where that board was lit. >And flags are positioned so that they are not obstructed or hidden. The marshal post near the finish line is hard to see [because it's on the blind side of the kink on the main straight, as well as visually behind the track access wall](https://i.redd.it/owporqi2na471.jpg). That's why the marshaling sector begins before the kink.


MuelNado

True and I fear that too. I wasn't sure as when Masi said the entire field didn't slow enough, I thought maybe they'd take a while to investigate it during the week and then look at punishments.


doublednf

I think Masi should go full ruthless and penalise everyone who didn't atleast lift. Give them all 10 grid places + 3 points. Then make the point really hard that even those that did lift didn't lift properly and show schumacher as an example of how it should work. Then tell them that from now on it will be zero tolerance, and that they do not have to worry about being overtaken since they cannot be under a yellow.


[deleted]

[удалено]


juliuspepperwoodchi

Which all could've been avoided had they just thrown the damn VSC out the moment Stroll/Verstappen crashed. Yet they failed to do so *both times*.


tnatsworthy

I'm just spitballing here but they have the G sensors that send the medical car out automatically, right. What if they also automatically activated the VSC for every crash above some amount of G's? It would obviously avoid a situation like the one last weekend, and I don't see any huge downsides to it. Basically everytime there is a hard impact there will have to be some kind of VSC/SC/Red flag to clean it up anyway. Why not instantly throw the VSC and then let the race director evaluate from there? Even if there is a false positive so to speak, the impact to the race isn't very large. Better safe than sorry, right?


OrbisAlius

Honestly you just don't need automation. You just need to make the obvious decision of pressing the Safety Car button the second you see a crashed car on the main straight. It's a 100% SC.


Quintino_123

I can't believe it has gotten this bad that people want automation for it. It's literally there fucking job and it's so easy to just instantly press a button and get at least a virtual safety car. After at most five seconds the call should be made.


OrbisAlius

Honestly it's not even instant VSC, it's instant SC. When you have debris all over the racing line, marshalls don't just need the cars to be slow, they need the cars to be bunched up so that they can have 2 continuous minutes of risk-free working time. It's a basic rule of race controling.


gizm770o

The medical car is never automatically deployed. That would be insanely dangerous. They receive their instructions directly from race control. Edit: Left out a word.


A_Nice_Meat_Sauce

It's not like they thought it detected that and was fired down a chute on to the track, when the sensors detect high enough g-forces the car is required to come out by rule. The alerting system is already in place and could likely be adapted to do this pretty easily. Doesn't really help for lower speed crashes but it's still faster than a person trying to get to the button when it does trigger.


goosellama

Masi only goes full ruthless for minor infractions. He let's the big scary incidents go


Geo_q

Like following your team’s instructions to stay out of the pits, right?


Ultrasoft-Compound

Exactly like those.


LaminaFace

*cries Lavazza espresso*


MuelNado

Agreed, I think the punishments should be the ultimate deterrents for this type of thing. I don't understand how lifting wasn't automatic - even if they selfishly and simply only consider their own safety in that situation. Carbon and tyre debris all over the track and they're at over 200 mph.


TheRobidog

If drivers considered their own safety they wouldn't be racing. That doesn't surprise me at all.


ReachForTheSkyline

Wasn't just their safety this time though. Could have killed Max, could have killed a marshall on the track. They don't know who is around the car until it's too late. Double yellows usually means someone is on the track. Could have killed a bystander if they hit that debris at 200mph and send it flying somewhere. It's not good enough from the drivers, and even worse from race direction not to use the VSC.


Araxx_

There needs to be some serious questioning to both the drivers and Masi. Any fan with a brain could see this was an instant (V)SC and yet it took so long. The drivers not slowing for double yellows is also incredibly dangerous. Everyone keeps yapping on about how much better this sport has become in terms of safety and it has, don't get me wrong, but it still has a long way to go as far as I'm concerned. These kind of situations are just unacceptable and there should be punishments for both the drivers that didn't lift and Masi for doing an incredibly poor job. It's just a matter of time before someone gets killed by this kind of shit and the blood will be on the FIA's hands if they're not willing to take this incident seriously.


modernvoyager-

How big of a penalty is that if 90% of the field is penalized??? They all cancel each other out except Mick starts 9th


Stravven

For example Ocon, Stroll and Verstappen will clearly benefit. Can't speed when you're out of the race.


welshmanec2

Max clearly lifted... ... his foot straight into that Pirelli carcass


doublednf

That doesn't matter, because now something like 17 serious infractions went unpenalised. Theyll get points on their license and it serves as a proper warning


fdar

It matters for next time. Drivers don't slow down because doing so potentially hurts their race, and not slowing down has no consequences (unless, you know, they crash, but from a competitive point of view it's better not to slow down). If you make a clear rule (maybe double yellows = VSC during that section or whatever) and make it clear that drivers speeding in those sections will be consistently penalized (even with something like a stop-and-go) then drivers would slow down.


ngetal6

The best deterrence isn't the severity of the sanction, but the certainty of it. If 14 drivers mess up and the 14 of them get sanctioned, you can be sure that almost no one will try it next time. And if someone feel like a smart-ass, increase the sanction next time. If that cost the championship or the ranking, it's natural selection.


Fickle-Cricket

The penalty points don’t cancel each other out.


The_Jake98

Even if it's only symbolic that's better then just shrugging...


XVelonicaX

It sets a precedent and reduces chance of drivers doing the same thing next time.


davidnotcoulthard

> They all cancel each other I think rather that if they start with the bottom of the grid and work their penalties up the grid, it would hurt the front runners more than Williams or Haas. Reverse grid Paul Richard!


Doyle524

Haas would get off scot free since Schumacher reacted in a textbook manner to the flags and Mazepin came into the pits to avoid the scene entirely. Assuming all drivers who passed the double yellows and didn't react like Schumacher got a grid penalty, we'd have some order of Verstappen, Hamilton, Pérez, Stroll, Ocon, then the two Haas drivers.


davidnotcoulthard

> Haas would get off scot free That would only make my plan even better if I'm reading right lol. ~~FIA, please disregard.~~


jtclimb

I want Haas on pole and 2nd in the next race. It's only fair. I'm more than halfway serious.


f1_spelt_as_bot

H**aas**


Hanchan

Haas would be 3 and 4, it'd be max and stroll on the front row since they weren't involved either, though I don't know if checo or lewis are wrapped up in this either.


newbsacc

Penalty points on the license. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence but Lando was 1 who lifted a lot. He is on 8 points so he might have been more careful to not get a race ban


DelectableJizz

Mick on pole in France!!


Doyle524

Schumacher and Mazepin would start P6 and P7 directly behind Pérez, Hamilton, Verstappen, Ocon, and Stroll. I'm so here for that chaos.


MuelNado

I think most of them lifted to some extent didn't they? Points for all that didn't lift enough (that might be most of them) and points (maybe a higher number than the others) and grid penalties for those that didn't lift at all?


Doyle524

That would be points for all but Pérez, Hamilton, Schumacher, Mazepin, and the DNFs Verstappen, Ocon, and Stroll; and grid penalties for Gasly, Tsunoda, Räikkönen, and Giovinazzi. I personally believe Räikkönen and Giovinazzi 100% deserve a race ban for blatantly ignoring not just the double yellows at the scene (like Gasly and Tsunoda) but also the digital board and marshal posts all the way before the kink (which were visible to every driver from Alonso back).


Torque2Me

Agreed. I also think Mazepin should get a race ban for nearly putting Mick in the wall, very dangerous. So Kimi, Gio and Nikita out for the next race then.


Scarim

> I think Masi should go full ruthless and penalise everyone who didn't atleast lift. Give them all 10 grid places + 3 points. Masi does not determine penalties though, that is up to the Stewards. Best he can do is report it to the Stewards, but he didn't even do that. Generally Stewards do come down pretty hard on this sort thing, when it is actually reported to them, but that very rarely happens. From a rules perspective, it doesn't matter if you slowed a little or not at all. Masi actually made a good point there, when he was talking to Mclaren. But if they were all guilty as he said, he should have reported them to the Stewards, so they could sort it out, that is what they are there for.


stupidmg

I was going through all the on-boards once again... There were no double yellow flags on the digital board until Alonso went past... and it was so difficult to spot the physical double yellows going 300 kph... Even tho... with common sense... it was a straight SC situation... the digital board had done very little to tell the drivers to slow down


marypsm

That ain't no excuse though. The digital boards weren't working when Verstappen lost pole in Mexico 2019, there were no warnings in his steering wheel, teams also didn't get a notice. There was only double yellow flags being waved in a part of the track he was not really looking at when completing his lap. He deemed the accident safe and didn't lift. All hell broke lose. Since then Max is always slowing down considerable when he sees an accident and flags, hence he has 0 penalty points. This current situation is a mess. But unfortunately, drivers need to get penalised and lose points in order to learn.


Garfie489

To be fair to Max, he did slow down considerably when seeing this accident as well :P


Maeximiliann

I’d argue he lifted the most out of any driver


4elm

I would say Stroll anticipated more than him though


The-Observer95

Stroll saw the future so he slowed down much earlier.


GoodFuture95

A true Canadian.


FrankSmith1234567

I think everybody can understand that, but what the drivers most definitely could see was a car smashed up and stopped in the middle of the track - meaning double yellows will be out and they need to slow


Fussel2107

There were no double yellows for Seb in Bahrain and he got a full penalty on the grounds that there clearly was a car on the track and he should've known.


Alfus

Honestly I getting tired of this whole mess because some armchair experts who never drove any class of motorsport are still claiming that all drivers suddenly having a 4D X-ray view and can see easy a terrible marshal position in a blind angle and so a shitload of people needs to be banned for 1 race at least because there just don't like the result. What we seeing here is not even the point of safety or "who is clearly wrong and who is in a doubtful situation", it's just becoming a shitty witchhunt on some drivers meanwhile in the case of the crash with Max all the drivers before Ricciardo couldn't (clearly) see that marshal waving yellows, Masi and the FIA dropped the shit here and needs to come up with clear solutions to prevent we ever getting such a terrible situation again, but come on who in Lord Mahaveer's name have the genius dumb idea to put a marshal who waving with yellows on a blind spot more or less? This needs to be different next time. We, our so called "genius armchair experts" got the fucking luxury to watch 364x those replays, slower it down and whatever else we can do to get a clearer view and seeing maybe a millisecond when you can see that marshal and saying "CATCH YA, YOU ARE A TERRIBLE DRIVER WHO NEEDS TO BE BANNED!". But are we ignoring that this happens live? A driver got only 1 view and can't put himself in an endless list of alternative universes. What happened after Ricciardo, especially with Kimi and Gio was terrible because there did get a lot more indications then Ricciardo and the driverd before him did get. Honestly this feels like the whole discussion isn't about how it happened, how bad Masi and the FIA acted and how we can prevent this in the future but the whole debate is just now witchhunting on drivers without context.


jamesbeil

If we keep racing at tight street circuits like Baku, and drivers keep ignoring DWY, someone will eventually be killed. That's why people are so enraged by this, and why something should change - making failure to lift by N% an automatic penalty would be a start.


moipaslui

> If we keep racing at tight street circuits like Baku, and ~~drivers keep ignoring DWY~~ Masi keeps taking so long to announce a SC or VSC, someone will eventually be killed. FTFY > making failure to lift by N% an automatic penalty I really wonder which tool accessible to the race director would give an automatic penalty to people who don't slow down by not respecting a determined delta.


twochopsticks

Crazy how some drivers were flat out through there. Masi should have smashed the SC or VSC button the instant he saw the crash. Waiting so long to call the SC is madness.


Alpha_Jazz

I don’t get why we don’t use the VSC more in these scenarios, especially before deciding whether to deploy a safety car. It ensures drivers slow down and is also decent at preserving gaps


howaboutthis13

I get that when a VSC is ending it is much more beneficial to drivers at turn 15 over drivers at turn 1, so in that regard it should be used sporadically. But here it was immediately clear that a full safety car was needed and then it is a perfect way to slow the cars down already.


javiazarphoto

>I don’t get why we don’t use the VSC more in these scenarios VSC was invented literally for this. The FIA got tired of yelling at drivers to slow down under double waved yellows, so VSC came about as a way to force everyone to slow down, or else.


1fakeengineer

I mentioned it elsewhere, but I'm surprised we don't have an automated system yet where if a car signals greater than X G force, then there is automatically at least a VSC triggered.


Thejoenkoepingchoker

Because there are probably a few deadspots like the Monaco tunnel spread around the calendar and after a few race changing erroneous VSC it would be done away with.


1fakeengineer

The Monaco thing can be fixed I'm sure. Repeaters are things. I could see how errors might be a pain, but doesn't mean they can start developing a system now and working out bugs, maybe have the system indicate when it would trigger it, but still require manual triggering. There's always solutions, I don't think the hurdles you mention should really be complete hindrances though.


Thejoenkoepingchoker

Of course not, but they are enough of a hindrance for the FIA/FOM to shelve it until someone dies. The Monaco thing could have been fixed years ago but nobody seems to care. And sadly with people like Masi at the helm, even a semi automated system would not work since they would never actually trigger the system. It's all completely feasible from a technical perspective, but most probably not for FIA/FOM in their current form.


Negabeidl69

I don't think measuring it by G-force is the smartest idea. On really hard impacts these sensors could fail and there are corners on the calendar which put more G-force on the car than light crashes with huge amounts of debris. I don't think automated flags (other than blue and black-white) will be a thing in the next couple of years, as you can't simply break any crash down to numbers.


A___99

Double yellows have lost any meaning they had. Use the VSC as soon as an incident like this happens, then decide if you need a safety car.


Tom_piddle

Correct, we learned this in Japan a few year ago.


phukovski

Need triple yellows... /s


IncarnSpoonCalc24

Triple caution TRIPLE CAUTION


NeiloMac

SAMIR, YOU’RE BREAKING THE CAR


Freeze014

I still say only Mick Schumacher slowed sufficiently and even he was going quicker than being able to come to a stop if needed, which is what double waved calls for.


reshp2

To be fair, I think he was the first one to go through with double waved yellows. The others were just yellow. EDIT: It looks like Alonso was the first one to see a double yellow.


Doyle524

There were double yellows at the marshal post directly before Verstappen's car from the time Hamilton was passing by. Everybody from Alonso back had double yellows on the digital board and at the marshal post before the kink for maximum visibility and thus have *zero* excuse.


reshp2

Right, I'm going off the light panel. can't seen the marshal post clearly from the video (honestly I doubt the drivers can either).


phukovski

> There were double yellows at the marshal post directly before Verstappen's car from the time Hamilton was passing by. No that's incorrect. It was a single waved yellow at MP20.3 as you can see from the video: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ntluvx/race_verstappen_crashes_out_of_lead_sc_deployed/


Stevolwo

Kimi barely slowed down behind Alonso and Fernando actually had to defend from him


PragmatistAntithesis

Agreed. The drivers already have an "I am slow enough to be prepared to stop" button, it's called the pit limiter.


PaddyPat12

The FIA should either enforce the double waved yellows regulation or change the regulation. As per [section 2.5.5b of Appendix H](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/appendix_h_2021_published_09_03_2021.pdf), the FIA regulations state "Reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop." In my 20 years of watching F1, I've seen double-yellow flags waved almost every race, and I have never seen anyone "be prepared to change direction or stop."


Pascalwb

At the end of the day Masi is the one who should have called vsc. Drivers won't care, most of the time yellow flags are just some minor thing, so why lose time


Doyle524

Double yellow flags literally mean "be prepared to stop". They're used to denote a blocked track. There is no excuse for a driver to not know that and react accordingly, much like there is no excuse for Lando Norris to not know that he must pit *immediately* for a red flag, or for Nicholas Latifi to not know that he *must* follow the safety car through the pit lane.


DJ_EV

The problem is - one driver will slow down a little, other will slow down more, Now, if the race restarts without SC or red flag, the second driver lost time simply because he was driving safer, which is kinda fucked up. And how much slowing down is enough is not clear, what's the speed they should be going there? Like in this case even guys who slowed down the most probably were still too fast to be prepared to stop. This definitely could have been avoided by SC coming immediately though, it looked obvious, at least to me.


flyrobot27

They should ditch the double waved yellow and follow Le Man's Slow Zone procedure. For anyone who doesn't know, in Le Mans, when there is an accident but wasn't enough to justify a full circuit safety car / red flag, a slow zone would be established. Usually it is the full length of a mini sector. There will be speed limit in that zone to 80kph and strictly no overtaking or speeding. They are also automatically engaged when driver passes them, kinda like the pit lane speed limiter. Double Waved yellow as you said is too ambiguous as to what is "slow enough", and I think the Slow Zone is a superior solution


Doyle524

The problem with immediate deployment of the safety car is that it would not have been able to pick up Pérez on that lap anyway, and until the safety car picks up the leader, it's just another on-track hazard for drivers to avoid - it's better to try and deploy the safety car as late as possible so it can pick up the leader as quickly as possible. That said, that's the entire purpose of the VSC - drivers are even put under a modified VSC when attempting to catch the safety car.


KevinC1980

Masi's pissy response to the mclaren radio call is so frustrating. Should have confirmed that they've seen it and crack everyone's head instead of letting everyone get away with it. Such a dangerous situation and he threw his hands up and threw a tantrum instead of actually addressing it.


According-Switch-708

Agreed, Masi is too incompetent for his role. The FIA should consider replacing him.


BradGroux

Sadly, it looks like it is going to take a serious incident before Masi is replaced.


ofallthescotchjoints

Lando gets 3 points on his license for doing what he thought was right, with nobody on the main straight. These guys are flat out with Max sitting in front of them at a 90 degree angle and nothing. Great stuff


auftragsgriller_

Reminds me of Charles doing 2 laps in Spain last year while unbelted. Really inexcusable decision making by the stewards/race control. They didn't even investigate the MSC/MAZ incident.


ofallthescotchjoints

Agree. They seem to take more seriously the incidents that happen in FP/Qualifying, where the risk to other drivers is much lower, than in the race where many of them are on the same part of the track at once. Makes no sense at all


Kmanf1

Looks like we can compile a book of Masi blunders.. Why is he still in the role when he so not showing competence?


jogaboi19

No clue but I’d love for Stefano to address this in some way. So many ignorant moments from Masi.


jaquesparblue

Stefano's first rule to the drivers was "no badmouthing the FIA and FOM in the media". If someone was ever going to shove something under the rug it will be him.


sweedeck

As the Ferrrari TP or as the CEO of F1?


jaquesparblue

CEO. Did a drivers meeting prior to Bahrain. https://www.racefans.net/2021/02/11/domenicali-to-remind-drivers-of-big-responsibility-to-act-as-role-models/ Between the lines: no shenanigans or shit talk in public


Tom_piddle

We should do. From seat belts to the turkey tractor to this


Scarim

> They didn't even investigate the MSC/MAZ incident. That sort of incident has to be reported before it can be investigated. Usually the team of the "victim" of the rules violation would report the incident to Race Control, but because they both were Haas drivers, Haas decided not to report it.


Znakie

Yeah, incidents between teammates rarely gets investigated.


chemistree

FYI they said they would look at it https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/nu9tui/f1_fia_to_examine_overlooked_mazepinschumacher


MoffKalast

"Understood, we are looking."


Businessfood

I've always wondered how often that's an attempt to stop driver complaints by the race engineers


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ofallthescotchjoints

Don’t disagree but if penalties are really about safety, what happened in the race was infinitely more dangerous than what he did in Quali


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shewy92

Latifi gets penalty points for doing what his engineer was yelling at him to do too


Tom_piddle

Masi is a bitch. He can give out penalties in free practice by following directions from the race book but doesn’t have the balls to control the race. No wonder drivers went flat out, oh no Masi is going to verbally tell me off in two weeks time! F1 doesn’t need to be this dangerous, car crashes on fastest part of the track = slap the VSC button.


Hodson224

Masi should be careful with punishments seeing as how he deserves one himself, the man was sleeping at the helm on both crashes. Close to 30 seconds for safety car deployment on a 350km/h straight? Twice?


Alfus

See here exactly why Masi can't do anything, at the end he made this scenario possible to happen instead to prevent it. We can't just say "we punish you and you" and moving on without the actions of Masi and the people around him are going to be investigated. Some people here are almost crying for race bans but ignoring that Masi and his team played a huge role. According to them all piss should be on the drivers and not on Masi so that this behavior continues.


Hodson224

Also really disagree with the penalty they handed down to Latifi, his race engineer fucked him and the team received no penalty but Latifi himself got 3 points to his license, man is driving down main straight and the engineer was literally yelling into his ear STAY OUT, it sounded like a car burst into flames in the pit lane or something. Then “oh sorry sorry” if I was Latifi and got that message i would have continued down the straight too.


Alfus

I agree with you point there about Latifi and it's ridiculous that in this cases a driver gets penalized heavy but not those who basically triggered this. That Latifi case wasn't even reviewed after the race and the stewards wants to hear his part is just so ridiculous. The problem sits them again in the FIA (and the team), not on the driver.


Hodson224

Yeah, like it’s not the end of the world, but it could open the door to drivers not having full trust in their race engineer, second guessing their instruction. Which is a very, very bad thing to have


Alpha_Jazz

That is absolutely blatant, not even a case of not lifting enough. Keeping it flat out through double yellows with debris and a car on the track is unacceptable


kerbalpilot

The more I see about this whole thing the more fucked up it turns out to be. F1 is playing dangerous games with safety, and these games will bring their prizes sooner or later.


Gllmour

Palmer is an amazing analyst. He is smart, knowledgeable he knows how to make a good argument, he is picking very good points... really a joy to listen him. To all you don't know there is a BBC podcast F1: Chequered flag with him among others every racing weekend. His insights its brilliant and I couldn't recommend you more.


Fickle-Cricket

The other great part of having him on the BBC podcast is how brutal the show was about him when he was racing. He occasionally takes a break from being an incredible analyst and pundit to needle the rest of the panel about their history of shit talking him.


unbeardedman

It's annoying to see comments about how he was as a driver anytime he criticises anyone like he can't make criticism of a driver that is likely better than he was.


TunaBarrett

Really enjoy jolyons debriefs after each race, usually very informative!


Reeves3007

Honestly, everyone who didn't react on the double yellow, deserves penalty points. They are there to penalize unsafe driving. Don't care if all 19 drivers ignored the flags, give points to the 19 drivers.


Streelydan

It is wild to me that Latifi got 3 penalty points for listening to his team and none of these drivers were penalized.


Cant_Frag

This is how Bianchi was killed. Another driver had already crashed and there were waved double yellows everywhere. Add the awful conditions to that, and you get a nasty accident right there. Sadly, F1 only learned to keep recovery vehicles off track at all times, but didn’t get the ignoring of double waved yellows under control


javiazarphoto

> but didn’t get the ignoring of double waved yellows under control Yes they did. They invented VSC specifically for this. The VSC was a direct response to Bianchi's death.


vbfronkis

Every journalist at the French GP needs to be asking questions on this topic. Hammer every driver, every team boss, every FIA representative.


3xchamp

This kind of thing makes my blood boil. F1 should know better.


RoIIerBaII

The only one who should be penalized is Michael.


Miragenz

Biggest offender of safety is still Masi however, for allowing all this to happen, failing to deploy the safety car after Max his crash in any sort of reasonable time, even for Stroll it wasn't quick. And he acknowledges that everyone is crossing a line, yet no one got a penalty.


Poke_Pulsar

Some **very** quick plots. [Figure 1](https://ibb.co/rZzv7pK). - Speed over Time throughout the lap. [Figure 2](https://ibb.co/jyhhvGV). - Close up on the Speed over Time during the final section of the lap. Here you can clearly see a decrease in speed from NOR and VET, GAS too but not to the same level. Practically no drop in speed from TSU. Next is Throttle Application; I've found that this value seems to be more 'spiky' than speed, I believe that this might just be the API rather than real life. So please take this with a pinch of salt. [Figure 3.](https://ibb.co/nQRL3gv) \- Throttle application over the final section of the track between NOR and TSU. Clearly we can see that NOR lets off, while TSU doesn't. [Figure 4.](https://ibb.co/qF8YBSF) \- This shows VET lets off the throttle. [Figure 5](https://ibb.co/jvkW5Cw). - From this API it shows that GAS doesn't let off the throttle either. **Take these with a pinch of salt as I've discovered the API to be a little fiddly and not always 100% accurate**. However, it's clear that some drivers took a more active role in reducing speed than others. Sadly we're not able to see if drivers changed engine modes, so there may have been a change in GAS' to reduce his speed. Hope you enjoy.


T0MYRIS

Honestly the best part about this race was that no one was killed given how embarrassing the stewards reacted to two extremely dangerous crashes.


Agisek

Masi refused to penalize anyone, because then everyone who got a penalty would start asking where was the safety car for a minute and a half while Max was standing in the middle of the fastest straight. Masi screwed up monumentally and should be fired immediately. It was only pure luck nobody died and it's all down to his actions, not any of the drivers.


Lima__Fox

Masi's responses to McLaren over the radio sound so smug and condescending. "Paul, Paul, Paul..."


earthmosphere

I wonder if there's some way to implement and enforce a speed limit system during a yellow flag throughout a sector instead of 'well we did lift'. The entire sector should have a speed limit of that which the cars can safely stop in a timely manner for instances like this, terrifying thought of a car going 300kmh+ past a stationary car with a driver still onboard.


SideShow117

Most people are completely oblivious here. F1 is politics. Masi cannot fault all the drivers cause they're inconsistent as hell stewarding. The fault lies purely and completely on race control not issueing a SC immediately, at the very least a VSC. It was obvious from the moment Verstappen spinned that the car would have been unrecoverable from that location without at least a VSC, and obviously a SC would have been called. They were indecisive. Going against individual drivers who didn't lift "enough" or didn't lift at all is meaningless and opens the FIA up against counter investigations they are only going to be worse off from. The only course of action they can do is a stern talk next weekend and improve their own stewarding when it comes to this to prevent it from happening again in this manner in the future. That means punishments for this incident are unlikely but any future incidents will be penalised extrenely harshly.


Skulldetta

Nah, totally not a problem. Historically, wrecks and/or people on track while no caution is out and everyone is driving full throttle never had any negative effect on anyone. I'm sure Tom Pryce can tell you all about that.


Doyle524

Jules Bianchi would also be glad to chime in on why driving at 200+kph under double yellows is perfectly safe.


JimBeefLakeMonster

F1 is still risking people lives because their own rules are too complicated for themselves to figure out, no other racing series in earth is this bad at on track safety and organization.


Maneatsdog

What F1 needs is more automation in the steward room. Use micro sector timings to punish track limits. Slowing down under double yellow should be enforced automatically - don't slow down to a given delta and get an automatic penalty.


AzenNinja

I'm pretty sure Masi didn't say Gasly and Tsunoda were doing it right. Matter of fact he said EVERYONE did it wrong. Even though Lando lifted the most, he was still going 260 km/h. At that speed a front wing will still shred a marshal if you crash. Masi's point isnt that everyone did it right. Masi's point is that no one did.


Meyesme3

I think there is another factor here in that if you slow down too much you worry about getting rear ended if the guy behind you didn't lift. That's why they needed a safety car so that everyone slows on the the entire track. The sector yellow means everyone tries to race.


tyfunk02

I get that people should have lifted, but Masi should have called for a VSC immediately. For both Max and Lance. Dangerous situations like this are exactly why they came up with the VSC in the first place. The time it took after both incidents to go from double waved yellows to safety car was absurd.


DelectableJizz

You know the ones who did not lift at all should be given 3 penalty points or something, instead of Latifi. Who made an attempt at lifting but did not lift enough, should be given 2 or 1. Edit: Why are they flat out though? Are they just confident enough in their car/abilities to know when it is dangerous to be flat out and when not? Maybe they thought that there's no way they will crash into Verstappen if they stick left, and they were confident about this thought? Still should be penalized imo...


tekanet

They go flat out because they suppose to have understood the crash scene and where the danger is: too bad they can't know if there's another car crashed, someone on the track etc. Also in case of a sudden VSC they can gain a little bit compared to the driver in front (if he slows down more than them).


ElatedJohnson

If Max is out of the way, one of them gets a Red Bull seat /s Joking aside, it’s disappointing that race control *didn’t* investigate drivers for not backing off for double-flags Even if it meant the majority of the field got a penalty, it should have been done on principle Not backing off under yellow flags has been an issue for years in the sport (was it 2014 when Rosberg set a pole lap under yellows?) and still doesn’t seem to have enough of a deterrent to drivers


Dense_Inspector

Oh look, the *second* reason Masi needs to be fired for a single incident. Oh yeah they're all as bad as eachother. Except you literally have the data that shows they aren't.


SlagathorTheProctor

Is it fair to ask if Masi is in over his head? He has seemed incapable of making timely and consistent calls on a few occasions.


thermal7

It's understandable why Stroll was freaked out and asking for a red flag.


MrParker21

Yes, it should have been an immediate safety car, but that doesn't excuse drivers completely ignoring yellow flags. Idiocy all round.


javiazarphoto

Masi needs to be replaced with someone who'll trigger VSCs and SCs faster. The reason VSC was invented as specifically for this. People weren't slowing down enough under double waved yellows.


Daeurth

For a major safety issue like this, for Masi to say ALL drivers involved behaved in a manner such that they should be penalized and then go on to not penalize any of them is unacceptable. If they should all be penalized, do it. This straight up could have killed someone.


Aninternetdude

There is a difference between not lifting enough and not lifting at all. DSQ both and next time they will lift for sure.


nulian

Even the person that lifted the most was still going 290 kph.


Slahinki

The onboard from Norris has the wrong number on the graphic. He slowed down to to 261 kmh as can be seen from the graph, which is still fucking fast but significantly less than 322.


UnicornMaster27

There is obviously, but even if you lift—but not enough to conform to the regulations—you should still be penalized as well. It’s not a gray area, you either lifted enough or you didn’t, and nobody did.


DasSmach

slowing down to "just" 300 kph isn't enough.. if only one of them hits Verstappen (cause they hit a piece of debries or something) he's dead.


SFishes12

My opinion, if you are not on the brakes, and off the throttle, while passing a crash scene it’s a big penalty. That’s that.


PrecisionDrivingTech

Michael Masi needs to get his act together, Charlie Whiting is rolling in his grave right now. This carelessness is going to cost somebody their life.


Jeffrewbob

What does lifting mean in this context?


procrastinator4

getting your foot of the throttle, which slows down the car


FNGmacaroni

A crash like Max's on a street course should be an immediate VSC. Take away "what if someone hit Max" and just look at any debris picked up and thrown by a passing vehicle going flat out is insanely high risk for death or dismemberment.


SFRush2049

Both Alfa Romero's wear flat out racing past Max as well. Take the decision out of the driver's hands, they will always go flat out, as shown by Jules Bianchi.


Garfie489

So if everyone didnt slow down enough, give everyone a penalty - and scale it based on the offence they committed. If Norris didnt slow down enough in yellows, give him 2 points. If Tsunoda didnt slow down at all in yellows, give him 3 points. If Kimi didnt slow down at all in double yellows, give him 6 points. Only drivers you dont give a penalty to are maybe Perez/Hamilton because no flags and being right behind - and the two HAAS drivers. What we then do is learn from this, and make any impact which triggers the g sensor in the car to automatically deploy the VSC within 10 seconds (sometimes an immediate release can be more dangerous). This seems to be what they do in Formula E, and honestly i think the way their race director operates in much more difficult conditions than F1 is nothing short of exemplary.


bennyboy599

Masi is a joke. All the hard work put in by Charlie (who wasn’t without fault himself) to improve safety is being undone by this clown for the sake of drama


Optimus_Drew

That's frightening. I just watched the Full analysis on f1tv. There is no way Gasly should have kept his podium following this. He keeps the throttle pinned the entire way. A slap on the wrist is not good enough