They aren't doing too well across the pond

They aren't doing too well across the pond


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The British *Empire* spread democracy?


Yes, that's why Westminster is known as the mother of Parliaments!


I mean, to be fair parliamentary systems are very democratic (as far as Capitalist Democracies go), but only minus the monarch.


Depends if it's an absolute monarchy.


Then it isn't a parliamentary democracy is it?


But Britain didn't have an absolute monarchy. We had Magna Carta, which US democracy is based on.


US doesn't have a real democracy either


I suppose but that distinction for the purposes of discussion, the distinction isn't that important (assuming you're referring to the distinction between a democracy and, say, a constitutional republic). In my mind, the two are shorthand for each other unless you're specifically discussion the differences between the two.


Democratic if you ignore the monarchy. How epic, this is what we should strive for


Well what we've got now is only democratic if you ignore the capital...


Yeah duh


I thought they [dictate how dogs should look](https://youtu.be/GZSIFekthRM)?


I mean there's a ton of democracies thanks to the decolonisation of former colonies. The empire never spread democracy but its death did.


***If*** it were true that colonisation spread technologies and democracy around the world more quickly than otherwise, then ***at best*** someone could claim that it itself was a utilitarian good. But the British Empire used the technologies we had to oppress, annihilate, and exploit foreign lands and peoples — our victims being able to use some of those technologies for themselves hundreds of years later doesn't make the initial act moral. Doing a horrific act and it accidentally causing some benefits down the line doesn't absolve that act.


I hate when people defend the colonizing empires conveniently forgetting that all that "progress" was the result of un-necessary genocide, slavery and stealing of land and property. That progress and more could have been achieved better with some mutual respect between cultures and without the racial elitism that was forced upon the entire world by some pompous "royal" pricks.




Ultimately you can say that about anything, and it's the foundation of some religions. Technically *nothing* is good or evil, it just is. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be conversation about it, and doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any attempt at redressing historical injustices. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be any attempt at changing. We aren't dumb apes who are slaves to our biology and evolution. We're taking control of our destiny down to the level of DNA. I think looking to the past where "this is how things happen because that's how they've always happened and always will" is extremely narrow-minded. I mean you might land up being right at the end of the day. But it seems so defeatist.


Not to mention just bringing the technology was massively profitable exploitation. "*British shareholders made absurd amounts of money by investing in the railways, where the government guaranteed returns double those of government stocks, paid entirely from Indian, and not British, taxes. It was a splendid racket for Britons, at the expense of the Indian taxpayer*." They also maintained a stranglehold and didn't actually let the technology transfer to the colonies. Indians had started building their own trains, at a much more affordable price. The Raj banned it in 1912, so by independence in 1947 the technical knowledge to build trains was lost, and a now independent India had to hire British experts to help them set up a locomotive factory.


I blame France for democracy.


King George III: I love democracy


I am the senate


The sun never sets on the British Empire: *Unlimited power!*


It's like the snake eating its own tail: by putting them under oppressive monarchical rule, it inspired democratic revolutions! Unironically still a better strategy than when the US empire tries to create democracy.


So the plot of Dune basically


Democracy for *certain* people.


It's like that old trope of the child of abusive parents becoming somewhat successful and the parents patting themselves on the back for raising them so well. "Well you turned out alright, we couldn't have been *that* bad."




The British east India company was a nightmare to live under. They were in every way an autocratic alien tyrant that enslaved hundreds of millions of people. Those trains and ports were built to extract resources and get them onto English boats. When they uprooted and took over agriculture in India they killed hundreds of millions with constant famine, all so like 20 guys back in Britain could become insanely rich. These famines continued well into the 20th century. The British empire was the most destructive and evil force the world had ever seen until Nazi Germany... except Britain had 300 years to make the world into their sadistic playground.


Counterpoint: the Spanish Empire, Portuguese Empire, Belgian free state, and possibly the German Empire.


Through their constant expansionist colonialism and the oppressive regimes they created they gave people the will to rise up and fight back *with Democracy*. See? As long as you bend over backwards to appeal to the thing you want, anything is possible!


Ended the transatlantic slave trade? After massively supporting it? I mean that’s like beating the shit out of someone then later you stop someone else from bullying them. Thanks man!


It's more like beating the shit out of someone, and then stopping and being proud of yourself that you stopped, lmao


Reminds me of that one kid back in school who would always get rewarded for not acting like a shitbag.


You went to school with Colin too?


Holy shit were they ALL named Colin? Is this further proof we exist in a simulation?


... I was a shitbag? Fuck...


We didn’t mean for you to find out this way.


Fuck you Colin!




fucking colin always a bitch


Oh I hated that. Teachers would bring out the rewards for students who behaved well but then the only people who ever got them were the normally terribly behaved students who were a little quieter that day.


I got around this by acting a little dickish to those teachers sometimes (not too much that you actually get in trouble) and then other times sucking up to them, works wonders


"I was once a serial-rapist. Now, I am a proud feminist. I only watch real-rape porn now."


This is the conservative talking point about critical race theory lately. That there isn't enough praising america for stopping slavery. Oh and slavery existed elsewhere too.


To be fair, that “slavery existed elsewhere” and “still exists today” (actual slavery not fatuous hyperbole about low wage jobs) is a fact unknown by huge numbers of Americans. It’s like they want to define slavery in the same parochial US-centric way that they define racism in the US now.


Right? They have deemed that any teaching about slavery is now "CRT" and should be banned. It is getting crazy.


I know conservatives who will say "we ended slavery. We fought a whole war over it," while also sporting a confederate flag bumper sticker.


Well we’ve been beating the shit out of this guy for several hundred years but some bleeding hearts are upset about it, we aren’t benefiting economically much anymore, and Haiti just fought back and kicked France’s ass so we’re a little nervous. Guess it’s a grave injustice now \*gestures horror-struck at continental European powers, who continue beating the shit out of the guy for slightly longer\* Can you believe these sick bastards


For real you can't take credit for ending the thing you helped start


I mean you can, everyone will think you are a massive prick for doing it but you totally can


No, make it illegal >:| But yeah I hear ya


I got into an argument about this on /r/PoliticalCompassMemes about a week ago. A lot of users there were arguing that the British empire ended slavery but never engaged in slavery itself.


Pcm is a cesspool. I had to leave it


They can have genuinely good memes but I got sick of sorting through the blatant racism to find em


PCM is literally just a trick to give the right a platform among people who would never listen to them or go to their subreddits anyway.


Lmao, and who do they think ran the 13 colonies, the martians?


How? That's just factually incorrect. Like modern Britain never legalized slavery but they sure as hell engaged in the institution of slavery. They basically pioneered it. That's some Pontius Pilate level crap.


Not to mention they still had Child Labor when they ended it, and that went on until the 19th century


I was a serial killer but like I was sorry so it cancels out


Yes, bare in mind though that that was different generations of people making different decisions. It isn't incorrect to believe that Britain was both the bad guys and then later on the good side in terms of the slave trade, because Britain isn't one singular person.


A bit debatable though: 1. Even after ending slavery officially in 1833, they didn’t ban it within the territory of the east India company. 2. even after banning it in the subcontinent on paper, they kinda still had it in many of their colonies. For me, I think of the musclemen that were used in coal mines in eastern India to keep them working. But those sort of stories i know existed in many of the colonies. 3. also they brought many many Africans Indians and Hakka Chinese people around the world under indentured servitude contracts even after slavery. While in some cases it was better off than being slaves, in other cases it was just as bad. 4. colonialism was pretty fucked up and slavery-like in a lot of ways.


To be as fair as possible the British Navy did play a big part in stopping the Transatlantic Slave trade by patrolling the Atlantic and detaining slave ships but that doesn’t really make up for helping to set it up in the first place.


Yes, and right after that they moved 100% to bonded labour on the British colonial plantations. Of course, it's not *real slavery* if the workers get a ceremonial penny every few months that you take back because somehow they owe you!


They only stopped the slave trade because of insurance. The British played the narrative to their public that the Africans were bravely volunteering to build the new world, and were being transported there to help. Only after court cases from slave traders claiming on their shipping insurance for disputed cases was the reality realised. The slaving company would have one of their victims get sick, and would then throw that person, and all of his neighbouring chained people overboard to avoid "excessive loss of cargo due to disease". The insurance company would argue that voluntarily throwing cargo overboard could not be covered in the policy, so it would go to court. The public would witness the court cases, and outrage ensued. This public pressure was what ended the British slave trade.


They also funded their ending of slavery with taxes raised from lower and middle class, redistributing even more money to high class in Britain.


What’s up with right wingers supporting colonialism and then being like “1776, America, don’t tread on me”


They support white people oppressing non white people. Any time you are confused about Republican behavior, the answer is either racism or money.


For poor republicans it’s always racism for rich ones it’s always money


Assuming that rich Republicans aren't also racist...


They’re racist, but politically racism only matters as far as it makes them money.


Getting poor white people to fight and die so rich white people can own slaves was the ultimate grift. The poor white had more in common with the black slave.


Except that the poor white is an ignorant complicit and the black slave was an actual victim That being said I get your point. The only real winner is wealthy white men with financial ties to slavery


Fundamentally they aren't anything. If tomorrow eating children somehow became the most effective way for them to keep power they'd do it. If racism genuinely stopped being useful to them they'd squash it. If religion stopped being useful to them they'd be the first ones introducing bills to end tax exemptions. There's no bottom line, no underlying philosophical stance, no genuine belief in any particular political school of thought, nothing. Every equation is a simple one - if it keeps us in power, it's good. If it erodes our power it's bad.


Don't forget stupidity!! Every single study shows that providing the homeless with housing costs less than not doing it. Yet they are so dumb that they will say it's too expensive. Never underestimate how stupid they are ;)


They only care about immediate costs, which makes doing that more expensive than not doing that. Not trying to say it’s not stupid, more pointing out it’s a symptom of a larger issue. Like their indifference to climate change


No they care about winning a zero sum game they made up. They don't care that it costs less to house the homeless, they just care that they had to work to pay for *their* house, so the homeless shouldn't "get something for free".


This isn’t “stupid”, it’s intentional. The homeless are a warning for you to not stop working for them or risk your stability.


Democracy is no longer going their way. I’ve noticed them advocating for the return of enlightened (read: Christian) monarchies. Makes it easier for a tyrant to mobilize…


They were never in support of small govt it’s always been about creating an oligarchical feudal society. Where the proletariat prop up the upper class with their labor and consumption of products.


Tbf, this is a UK right wing group (but tpusa would probably support this)


>What’s up with right wingers ~~supporting colonialism and then being like “1776, America, don’t tread on me”~~




Us backed death squads in South America.


> 2016 likes Pain


Omfg it’s goglinybog


I can’t escape






Bro I thought you were an r/196 exclusive celebrity, why are you being recognized here


Who do you think browses r/196


So true goblinhog


Gasp based Goblinhog


We meet again, knoblinpog. And I didn’t even have to stalk your profile this time.


Trains that took the wealth and food of India and deported them elsewhere to the empire, leaving Indians in famine


It’s the only excuse I need to dislike Winston Churchill


Grew up in India. We whitewashed that shit out of our own history books. Didn't learn about the [famines during the British rule that killed millions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule) only until recently.


Doesn't the total death toll of the British occupation amount to 1.8 billion. Which, btw, makes the British empire directly responsible for AT LEAST 2% of all human deaths that have ever occured.


Yeah. I’ve looked this up and that was the number I saw. There were literally roving gangs of cannibals in India because of what the British did there


Or Winston Churchill creating the famine that killed 4 million Bengali people. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/winston-churchill-genocide-dictator-shashi-tharoor-melbourne-writers-festival-a7936141.html


Sorry India... No food crops; only cotton for our textile mills and tea for our crumpets


Also in Ireland


Next they’re gonna say the Falklands War was a worthwhile use of taxpayer money


I mean, the other option would have been to let a far-right junta invade a sovereign island that it had no legitimate claim to and attack people under their protection.


That sounds like what the British have been doing for ages


Not in the 1980s though? That's like talking about modern day Germany defending itself and comparing it to the Nazis, or France defending one of their protectorates and comparing it to the Napoleonic era


Sorry only the British Empire is bad and evil, the Spanish, French, German, Portuguese, Belgian, Ottoman, Japanese, Greek, Roman, Italian, Viking, Chinese, Dutch, and Arabian Empires were the good invaders and colonisers!


They did some pretty cringe shit post WW2, like supporting the Nigerian government in their genocide during the 1960's. Falklands are still British though, they were literally uninhabited at the time (for once when the Brits claim that it's true) and the overwhelming response was pro British


And with that comment the circlejerk was complete. Some wet behind the ears no mark has decided the falklanders should be living under a military dictatorship instead of democratically choosing their own fate


If you take out half the words there, sure. That still doesn't make what the Argentinians did right by any matter.


I know its just funny that you’ve laid out exactly what the British have been doing.


19 upvotes for advocating a fascist imperial land grab. Nice.


It was. Self determination is good actually


I mean it was


It literally was. Did you know that in the independence referendum for the Falklands in 2013 literally 3 people voted to become independent? You're literally defending fascist land grabs lmao


can you Argentines get over that already? your government's just using it as a way to distract you from local economic problems.


I’m literally British


Odd I'm used to them bitching about the Falklands. Still I guess there must be some people who don't see using the army to protect British citizens. "as worth the cost"


But you are stupid, yes?


Fairly sure there is a PragurU video saying that.


Are they just trolling or is this something they actually believe? Because I can't tell anymore.


It's the official, verified, turning point branch for the UK. It's real


I get it's the real account. But are they positing these things under the idea that all press is good press or they're fine with the genocide, famine, wars, etc. the British empire perpetrated.


I think it's the latter There's TP supporters in the comments making the argument that Britain brought civilization to indian savages and such, so I get the feeling they're just playing to their base


Fits the bill. They're as embarrassing there as they are here in the USA.


turning point uk is hella fucked up, so probably yeah


Can't say I'm surprised.


Irish heritage here. Fuck Britten


Where in Ireland are you from ?






haha she changed it from "Irish lady" to "Irish heritage", I was only joking but it looks like i accidentally called her out.


It’s so fucking weird to me how Americans will claim to be from a certain nationality because their ancestors came from that region.


Yeah like I actually *can* call myself English given I'm literally a citizen, but I don't because I've never actually lived there, and as such don't have any of the shared experiences or culture required to actually identify as a nationality. How do these people 5 generations removed from a country claim to be that nationality?? I ain't Dutch because I have Boer ancestors


Lmao, I am literally a boer and I don’t call myself Dutch. We haven’t been Dutch for centuries.


Im half Scottish and I go once or twice every year I don’t count myself as Scottish


"I'm irish, well I mean I have Irish family, well I mean my brother in laws uncle's step-daughters great great great great grandmother was 1/16th Irish"


she's american lol


Her great grandma had a splash of whiskey in her coffee once. Back off.


That question went exactly as planned lol.


you posted that someone from your school said fighting for America is bravery, how would that be the case if you're Irish?


Let's ask Ireland if the British did good


or India, or half of Africa, or indigenous Australians or, you know, the United States.


Ireland got it a little worse the us, considering famine, state sponsored terrorists and cromwell


I take it the sample has to go beyond Northern Irish unionists?


Pretty much anyone else yeah


Praising the British empire for fighting slave trade and spreading democracy is like praising Hitler for fighting fascism. Sure, he killed Hitler, but that doesn't really make him the good guy


Reminds me of the joke that "my hero is the guy who killed Hitler!" Good analogy though


Speaking as a British person, the only thing cringier than right wing Americans are the right wing British people who desperately wish they were Americans.


I’ve never met a right wing Brit that wished they were American. If anything they’re more hostile to Americans than average Brits




Not that much, more like in the tens of millions






“Utsa Patnaik is a Marxist economist” I’d say she might have some bias and it has influenced her estimates.


So I take it they went to these countries to build trains and spread democracy, and not exploit their natural resources and the people living there? Also how is rule by viceroys or governors democratic?


*Conservatives* Simping for the founding fathers: Virgin Simping for the British Empire: Chad


Hahaha socialists are so dumb. I’m a conservative; for all you libtards out there that means I’m big and tough and manly. My balls are so big and tough that my boss can use them as a punching bag, and I let him just to show off how tough I am. Sometimes I even ask for it; no, beg for it. Why, you ask? Because I WORK for my money, just like my father, and his father before him. That’s what America was built off of. Now these libcucks want everything handed to them. They want work to be a walk in the park because their soft, delicate hands are too weak to handle real work. You know what I do when work gets tough? I don’t complain about the “capitalist machine” or the corporation I work for. I APPRECIATE them because they keep the ECONOMY going. When work gets tough you know what these libs say? That they’re being crushed by the boot of capitalism. You know what I say? “Unnngg yes stomp me harder daddy” because I can handle it, unlike you soy boys out there. So you can go ahead and complain about how hard your lives are, while I, a REAL man, keeps this economy going you you can enjoy your pretty little iPhones and Venuzeulas. (also Marx is hot, I would totally let him stomp me EXTRA HARD if he was my capitalist boss. Like, he could treat me worse than Jeff Bezos treats his warehouse workers and I would TOTALLY still work for him.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ToiletPaperUSA) if you have any questions or concerns.*


As an Irish person, I am quite the angry rn :)


It's ok [:)](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/108023705/margaret-thatcher)


As an Indian person, I can empathize with your anger.


This reaks of that neonazi sub r/britishnationalist. How tf do subs like that not get banned already? Fucking pussies.


Right? Your link didn't work (it's britishnationalism and britishnationalists) but I went to those subs as saw unironic "death of the white race" posts. Oh well, at least fartherright got taken down


You mean r/BritishImperialism ? Run by a Hitler fanboy and genocide denier (as in all genocides committed by white people)


Ireland vehemently disagrees


As a Brit, I'd like to just point out that these guys have basically zero actual influence over here. They're basically preaching to their own little jongoist choir, and they don't seem to have realised that their brand of dumbed down American-style politics don't really play around here For context, we had a bunch of right wing pundits launch GB News, basically an anti-Woke, Conservative Fox News Stand-In... well, basically a bunch of idiots accused it of selling out and 'going woke' because a host took the knee live on air, and the resulting 'boycott' actually saw some of their programs receive no measurable viewers So essentially, a bunch of racists morons boycotted them... and it took away almost their entire viewership.


INDIA WAS THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD BEFORE THOSE FUCKS CAME IN. WE COULD HAVE BOUGHT A MOTHERFUCKIN TRAIN SYSTEM. the british were parasites who took advantage of a weak succession system for financial gain.


India was a collection of competing kingdoms and principalities, it wasn't a country.


Yeah, no. During the 18th century India was about 90% under the mughal empire(aurangzeb), collective taxes were 10 times the taxes collected by the french(under louis 16) during the same period despite India only having 7 times the population. Source:wikipedia


Becuase Germany and co never were split kingdoms at any point


Guess they didn't take the Euro2020 loss well


Bro saying the British empire ended the transatlantic slave trade is like T-pain saying he "ended" auto-tune.


I'm sure the women and children they put in concentration camps during the Boer War would agree with this


Even if that it was entirely true, anyone who've aged past childhood should realize that doing good does not undo the bad things you've gone. You can do evil shit for a year, and then do good shit for the rest of your life, and that evil will still be done. Kill a man, and save ten, still, that man is dead. The only one who can forgive you is the one you've hurt. And even if you're forgiven by the one you hurt, and reimburse them for what they've lost, and they tell the world, with all sincerity and love, that you're good and honest and wonderful, you still cannot allow yourself to forget what you did, and pretend that you're a good man.


>Ended the trans-Atlantic slave trade Remind me again who started the trans-Atlantic slave trade? I don't think you get to take credit for ending monstrous institutions that you built, supported, and profited from for centuries.


The whole thing is terribly complicated and everyone ( every nation ) involved should feel the shame http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/africa_article_01.shtml - let’s hope we all keep moving in the right direction. I suppose that being British makes me feel proud ( for some recent events ) and ashamed of the dark past we leave behind. When watching Game of Thrones I was reminded that the Iron Bank must have been modelled on the Dutch, just lend the money for everyone else to be dicks with.


The Portuguese.


Democracy? The British empire? The empire with a monarchy? Spread democracy. Ok sure buddy.


It accidentally made Americans. That can’t be un-fucked.


Monarchists and imperialists are scum.


God I despise the dumbass dogma when people bring up the British empire. The whole thing started from the 1600’s till the 20th century, lasting about 5 times longer than the Pax Romana. There were periods of good, and periods of unbelievable evil. Often periods of good for 1 region was horrific for another. Conservatives love it because it’s a resource sink. For every legitimate example or argument you can bring them they’ll have another argument right to follow. The question shouldn’t be “was the British empire good?” Because it’s a subjective and broad question. The question should be “should we be holding the same ideologies of colonialism moving forward?” Which the answer is obviously no.


You make a good point in your last paragraph. I feel like zero-sum measurements of "good" and "bad" when you're looking at the long, complicated reign of an empire, is far too reductive.


Yea all those countries that fought against the Democracy spreading British are the real assholes. I'm glad I don't live in one of those countries.


> Ended the trans Atlantic slave trade Do they get credit for that when they were perpetuating and profiting from it for centuries? I fell like “eventually stopped stabbing someone” counts as saving them


>Estimated 2 million deaths during the India-Pakistan partition "I guess that's what happens when we don't actually try or care" "Let's do the same thing several times again starting with Israel" "Lol ok"


During burn the English flag month too? Man they want to get shit on at this point


Tbh fyck the colonial brits, including the scot n Irish missionaries.


The “modern world” is a non-sustainable shithole that revolves around destroying the planet and everyone else’s resources in the global south


Canada sitting here like.... Its been great living on top of the corpses of the indigenous peoples! Thanks Britian!


started the transatlantic slave trade ended the transatlantic slave trade Wow thank you so much Britain


Portugal, Portugal started the transalantic slave trade.


Oops. Well they certainly helped start it and perpetuate it


what the absolute fuck is wrong with these people how can someone be that fucking ignorant


The British ending the slave trade is the Anglican equivalent to the ‘at least Hitler killed Hitler’ joke


Israel is trying to justify what they're doing to Palestine based off what America has accomplished.


The thing about non-Americans is that they typically know their history a little better than Americans.


holy shit this seems like a thing one of those history memes people would post Unironically


But do those trains run on time? I don't think so 🇮🇹 /s


By that logic the Japanese invading and millions dying is offset by the fact that the majority of Asian countries they were in gained their Independence following their defeat.