What is the point of traps?
By - etra_kurdaj
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The whole "we have a device to just turn off traps" thing is a big mistake on the part of rebellion rather than going with the original game's behavior of agents learning to dodge traps (and gaining heat/suspicion if they took damage from traps).
It's basically impossible to balance properly. Because once you get to good or better agents, they all pull out their remotes for most traps. Which nullifies the bulk of the traps. Since they're also now buffed to absurd health levels, the traps that DO work are no longer meaningful in terms of damage. And trap combos are almost impossible to pull off because one or more elements of the combo will be turned off.
That's because basically, now traps are related to binary skill levels. If Agent is Rank = Good or higher, they can turn off X traps. If they're rated Excellent or higher, they can turn off X+ Y traps and so forth. It means traps fall into a static progression and early game traps become useless as you progress.
They need to bring back/do the following:
1. Traps that don't target health, with variations of traps so that you can target skill or resolve more frequently (currently only bees target resolve so far as I can tell, nothing targets skill, and the knockout gas is a lie since it targets health, not skill).
2. Agent rolling/dodging animations as their primary method to try and get around traps, not the remotes.Remotes are absurdly lame because they just disable the traps, meaning they don't fire at all. The dodging/rolling method meant the traps would still fire, and could hit someone else potentially, just maybe not the lead agent in a pack. The only agent who should have a remote to turn off traps should be the Steeles from the Steele program (as I think he was the only one who could do this in the original game).
3. Unsync animations so completetly from traps. A lot of traps can only work on one agent at a time because their animations are synced. Stuff that could potentially hit multiple agents at once therefore can't hit them due to this syncing. The boxing glove is the most obvious. Even if two or three agents are in its line of fire, it will only ever hit one.
4. Either give us link control to traps or at least make the links between them clearer when setting them up. Right now you're just sort of hoping you've set linked traps work together properly, and you can't send out test dummies anymore to be sure of ranges on things like boxing glove into bumper etc.
5. To counter some traps, let agents attack traps if they get too low on health from traps. This is how they'd react if they were too "frustrated" in the original game, and it could get annoying, but it made more sense if someone was caught in a trap loop that they'd attack the trap than that they had a magic button to turn them off.
6. If they're going to keep the damn remotes, it needs to have a long-ass cool down. Then maybe a pack of agents might be able to disable the first # of traps equal to the numbers on their team, but then they're going to suffer through some for a while before they can do that again.
7. They should not be able to use remotes or other disabling actions if they're on fire/surrounded by bees. I hate that their disable trap animation has such absurd priority, personally. I've literally created setups to set agents on fire, thinking that, "whilst on fire, surely they'll run down a hallway and trigger the traps down it because well, they're too busy being on fire to do anything else" only to see agents literally caught fire who will stop what they're doing, pull out a remote, and disable the next trap that they'd trigger. It's absurd.
8. In order to balance more effective traps, have health damage done by traps raise suspicion. This way you'd have to set up trap situations that definitely kill agents or definitely break their resolve, but if they don't, then those investigators are high-tailing it out of there quick and calling in soldier hit squads.
Traps CAN work... it's just that there really seems to be one major way to do it - IE dog-piling slippery floors, magnets, and dual-fans. It's extremely inelegant. Effective, but no where near the fun a more varied, versatile, and creativity-prompting system would be.
I can't imagine that was the intention, but with Agents all randomly packing a universal off button for everything (and if they're THAT common, you can't tell me the Genius wouldn't get their hands on one and develop counter-measures...), that's the game Rebellion made.
You are supposed to weaken their skill with the casino first, and line of sight matters, get a magnet that will pull them the second they turn a corner into a sharktank.
Line of sight matters... except when it randomly doesn’t. Which is more often than not.
I have commonly seen investigators stroll right into the area of a magnet or fan tucked safely out of sight, only to see that trap wait patiently for them to slowly fish out their little disarm device and shut it down.
then put another one behind the original fan to blow his ass into the reach of a distant-placed magnet that yanks him directly into your bees
works on super agents that have had zero skill removed
Again. It works. Except when it doesn’t. Which is mostly.
After placing one fan/magnet back far enough that they can’t see it, the second one has even further reduced range limiting the number of other traps you can have it blow them into. (and don’t forget those other traps you’re sending them into are gonna have to be out of line of sight or they’ll just disarm them from a distance as well.)
Complicating this - traps have way too long of a cooldown. In a group of investigators you’re likely to get the first one while the others will just walk through your maze of already set off traps looking confused.
With a super agent, he might go onto your traps, he might just decide to go the other way. Or start killing your valets. Way easier way to deal with a super agent is to just send your five henchmen out to meet them on the dock/beach and pummel them into the dirt before they become a problem instead of gambling on ineffective traps. Literally works every time. No power needed. No gambling on agents going the right way. No gambling on the Rube Goldberg machine just... not working.
Trust me. I wanted to like the traps. I played the game for the traps. I tried every trick wanting them to work. There was always a cheaper, easier, less micromanagey way.
Yeah, man. I watched the same YouTube video you did. I tried it out extensively with fans and magnets and all the rest.
It works *sometimes.*
Dude, I made it myself weeks ago and just posted an image of it.
That’s cool. I’m still gonna go with having tried it myself if that’s ok.
But did you really?
Ok let me rephrase and I hope this doesn’t come off as me moving goalposts. but I also don’t want to misrepresent your argument.
it works when you do it *exactly* like that cookie cutter copied-from-the-internet build you posted, with no variation, make that the only direct way into your base, and discard any use of the casino or other potentially interesting aspects of the game (because those will either distract agents from the trap tunnel or otherwise be entirely redundant).
Meanwhile it’s way easier and less power-hungry to just send your henchmen out to deal with super agents. They aren’t that strong. Even just two henchmen (or one henchmen and your genius if you feel sassy) will easily take them out with their squad and they’re very easy to avoid until you have a full stable of henchmen.
The entire point of traps is to be creative. (that’s not my opinion that’s literally how the game advertises them.) Having exactly one possible way to use them effectively which also invalidates several other parts of the game is terrible game design.
So yes. They don’t work. Even when they function. I argued for traps for a while, but I’m done. They just suck.
Except, if you do that you might as well drain their resolve instead of their skill and send them home. Meanwhile soldiers and co don't care about the casino.
The way traps are designed, they're right now not in a very good spot. The investment and hoops one has to jump through to make them work kind of isn't worth it unless you do it because you want to and not to be efficient.
make trap operation redundant and make progression toward your base subject to a repeated series of identical, redundant trap sequences
then you can literally not pay attention when j-rusty iron shows up because their resolve will just drop to zero and they'll go home
Not every entrance is through a casino, and high skill level can negate line of sight.
Trap mechanics are overly simplistic and therefore broken; there's no intuition in trap building that allows overcoming an agents detection/disabling skills. It's all about just spamming out enough traps until one eventually gets them.. Even EG1's trap system with the pressure plates was more intuitive.
I play on crown gold, and all you need to do is extend the casino to the second entrance.
Doesn't address my other point, and still, you shouldn't *have* to cover every entrance with a casino in the first place. It's actually very counterintuitive given that your minions need to actively run to and from the helipad, and you don't want this occurring through your cover operation which should be designed to have your actual base entrance furthest from this outside entrance. You add a trap maze into the mix, your minions are having to run even further..
You *can* make Traps work even on Super Agents. People have shown it off on this sub multiple times. It just requires some clever positioning, like double-layered fans with a magnet or a similar setup to get the chain started.
"Just" he says, neglecting to mention the huge, long corridor of more traps you require in sequence..
You say that like we're short on space.
These islands are absolutely massive. They're big enough for 1-200 more Minions than we currently have, easily.
You say that like it's a justification for traps being so simplistic/ineffective.
You fanboys always come full circle with these silly notions.
I'll give you that traps are simplistic, but ineffective? If you use them wrong, sure.
You want big, complicated setups, like back in EG1. The mechanics are different, but the idea is the same: single traps are worthless, you need combos.
> I'll give you that traps are simplistic, but ineffective?
> he mechanics are different, but the idea is the same: single traps are worthless
You're contradicting yourself now.
They *are* ineffective if you require a spam of them to create any sort of impact on enemies. And don't compare EG1.. It came out a whole 17 years ago, but you know how groundbreaking what they had back then was for its time? Yet 17 whole years later and the mechanics aren't even better, but dumbed down rather..
You got me: putting down one single puzzle piece onto a table sucks. There's not enough picture to see! For some reason, you need a bunch of them to make a full puzzle. Who ever could have guessed that?
The traps are obviously meant to be used in big combos. It's obvious because like half of them are *just* combo pieces, anyway! Obviously KO Gas does very little by itself. Because you are supposed to trap Agents in a bubble, fill that bubble with KO Gas, and then blow that bubble to the next thing in line.
You are basically ignoring how they are designed and saying "Hey, when I use this thing totally wrong, it doesn't work." Yeah, no duh.
.. How old are you that it's this difficult for you to grasp that the mechanics in this game are overly simplistic by design and could be much better? Or are you just really dense...
You know those crazy preachers you see in public, ranting to everyone to love god? That's you in all these threads, blindly praising the game while the rest of us see the many flaws and work to try and get the devs to fix them.
man, you sure are defensive for a guy who can't make wrecking bola walk home
I'm calling it as it is, as a lot of people are who want this game to be better.
The defensive one would be the guy chiming in every thread to defend this game with piss poor arguments.
Trap disarming is based on Agent Skill. Higher Skill means they have a higher chance of disarming.
In addition, higher level traps are harder to disarm.
So, generally speaking, you want to lower Agent Skill via the casino and Distract tag to start, to maximize the odds of them going off.
After that, you can improve your success rate by combo'ing traps in ways that prevent Agents from disarming them at all. There are various videos and such that go over how to position Traps in such a way as to make them go off more often.
So how are you supposed to handle the baddies that come in through the loading dock? Am I supposed to build a second Cover Operation that tourists will never see?
After patch 1.3, every single FOJ agent came through the helipad in my game (except a few story-specific spawns, some of those used the casino entrance) so I got fed up with it and redesigned my base to funnel them through the casino.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I just extended the casino. I had an enormous cover op that hit both entrances.
Maybe put Armory Room next to the dock?
Link them together with a corridor, then put your defenses at the bottleneck. Don't bother defending the area outside of this chokepoint.
Then at the chokepoint put a bunch of advanced guard posts, give everyone guns, and more dakka solves all problems.
I've noticed those are usually soldiers and other hostiles, rather than investigators. So just shoot them, or use the high-level damage traps.
Or play the donut, that map brings everyone throguh the casino.
None of your defenses are supposed to be enough to stop everybody by itself. Otherwise it would be unbalanced if traps can just stop agents whats the point of muscle minions, If cover operation is enough to deal with everybody what is the point of muscle minions and traps?
There are many trap combinations that work regularly. Essentially what you need is a combo that starts regardless of which trap the Agent falls for so even if they disarm a few they won't escape from the goldberg machine. You also want your trap corridor to be long and reach to a deadend. It should waste their time long enough that all traps they bypassed should be functional once more.
However some agents will always pass so you always need some muscle minions. You can of course just pump muscle minions and deal with agents like that however the agent arrival counter starts once you deal with the ones in your lair not fully utilizing cover operation and traps to waste agent time will mean you will constantly bombarded with agents.
Traps definitely are not worthless, but they are.. weird. Agents above level 2 will disarm every trap they come across, based on line of sight. But line of sight is misleading, because they will see the area of effect of the trap, meaning they can see magnets and blowers without actually seeing the trap itself, all they need is line of sight of its area of effect.
The way to combat this is to use bait traps, preferably slippery floors. Place the slippery floor trap so it is half covered by the magnet/blower, and the agent will go for the slippery floor, standing on top of it and triggering the magnet/blower. They will stand there booping their device and breaking the laws of physics, and their companions will either walk past them and get blown/pulled or wait patiently behind them. In either case a slippery floor + blower + shark tank will always get at least one agent, provided the slippery floor is placed correctly.
Other people talking about whether it is worth it to lower the agents skill with the casino and I'm just like "Haha the puppy robot explodes"