T O P

Breaking down the candidates for "man-behind-the-curtain"

Breaking down the candidates for "man-behind-the-curtain"

The_Profecy

Personally, I've come to think it will be a Loki, probably played by Tom Hiddleson, but the space he's using, this castle and everything is/was Kang's. Stealing another throne he has no right to is very Loki.


pagingdrsolus

This sounds perfect. Evil Loki finally infiltrates the palace to find t abandoned, running on automated process by mindless androids. We don't find out why Kang abdicated his throne until Quantumania.


ProfessorBeer

I see that and raise you one more - it’s a fake Kang played by Trevor Slattery, put in place by the real Kang so he could go do whatever it is he wanted/needed to do in the setup to Quantumania.


pagingdrsolus

Bloody Hel, Bloody Hel...


ProfessorBeer

I’m an AC-TOR!


djseifer

"I was on vacation in Cabo. Wanted to try one of those 'jetskis' Mobius kept going on about. Did anything happen while I was gone?"


[deleted]

I agree that Loki is the most likely outcome but I do find it disappointing since we just did vision vs vision and super soldier vs super soldier. Is every Disney+ show going to boil down to some character vs a version of themselves?


The_Profecy

Honestly, probably. For a while at least. Despite where we are in the overarching narrative, these are the equivalent of Phase 1- understandable conflicts, no major upsets, reasonably dense worldbuilding, and fights that are 'easily' followed and made, the clever subversive stuff will follow. GotG wouldn't have fit in Phase 1, just as much as someone will probably say that Moon Knight wouldn't have been a good show to have in this set. (Or at least that's the mentality I'm assuming Marvel Studios to have taken to this first batch of shows) And hopefully that brings us to more risks and surprises down the line.


pagingdrsolus

I agree with all this. The first outting for a hero feels like an obligatory matchup against their dark reflection. It helps establish the character morality and powers. Okay this is what this character thinks and this is what they can do. Reinforce the example by juxtaposing it against a villain with opposing perspective but same skillset. Oh the hero is capable of doing x, but doesn't because that would be an evil use of their power.


Hmm_would_bang

I agree, they're hitting reset for a bit. It would have been unsustainable for Phase 4 step up or even match the level of phase 3. The Avengers just resurrected half the galaxy and we've got a changing of the guard going on now with the main lineup. Phase 4 is setting up the new characters and stories, and Kang probably won't even be the big bad everyone expects him to be. Probably ends with F4 and Doom being the bad guy leading into phase 5, perhaps as part of the MCU dark avengers.


habalooo

Variant loki or variant thor.. someone who wants to rid the universe of all lokis to be the only loki, or someone to rid the universe of all lokis because he hates lokis..


tharkus_

I feel like it may be a combo of King Loki and The original / Prime Renslayer who both work for Kang either while he busy or in hibernation so we’ll have one enemy for each group. Prime loki and Sylvie fight Loki and Mobius and varient Renslayer fight her other self. Or bat shit crazy and Chris Hemsworth comes out as varient evil Thor.


yarvem

A Renslayer is my top guess at the moment. She is both central to the current story drama and in the comics is very important to Kang.


habalooo

I didnt think they would do it proper... kudos to Disney +..


JemJemIsHerName

It would be interesting to see a variant Frost Giant Loki that never got adopted and was raised on his home planet. No influence from Asgard, Oden, Frigga, Thor, just a frost giant child.


idClip42

This is a great rundown of where we are currently. Hoping for Kang but, if not, hoping for Richard E. Grant (who would be more fun than just Hiddleston Loki). I'd just like to say, whatever it turns out to be, it's really nice to be in a situation where: * We're all unravelling a mystery in a Disney+ Marvel show. * There are multiple competing theories. * All of the speculation and discussion is based on *boatloads* of evidence *and* an understanding of storytelling. * The resulting discussions are civil and thorough.


pagingdrsolus

Oh dude. One hundred percent! These comments and replies, this discussion, it's everything I want it of this community.


PenCap_Anthem

Thank you for pointing this out. The one thing that really made me dislike the WV speculation was the people who would come on here and respond to a theory or someones wishes for who the villain would be and they just respond “NOPE, it’s X” and of course they were wrong just like the OP was. At the end of the day it’s more fun to share theories and go for the ride than to just do the typical reddit thing and say “NOPE you’re wrong”


pagingdrsolus

Absolutely! I admit I've been on both ends of this scenario, putting forth a dumbass theory and also shutting down other people's earnest predictions. I gotta remind myself, hey this is fun. It's okay to let your imagination run wild and it's okay to want exciting reveals! Not okay is belittling others or judging the show based on unrealistic expectations. We'll figure it out as we keep going.


PenCap_Anthem

I wish there were more variants of you out there!


carpenteer

Such a delightful and refreshing comment chain! Keep up the good work, everyone!


PenCap_Anthem

Thanks! :) here is your daily reminder that you are loved!


jaycah9

My vote is Grant as a villainous King Loki. A variant of the variant we met


JokerFaces2

I’m starting to think the same way. I’m convinced at this point that the man behind the curtains is Loki, but originally I assumed he would be played by Tom. Now Grant’s awesome performance, and the fact that this evil Loki would technically be pretty ancient at this point, has me hoping for Grant.


jaycah9

You don’t hire Grant to be a bit player or one of the ensemble Loki’s. You hire him to be THE big bad. And I can just picture him on the throne with some bad ass horns and a mean look on his face.


Sidders1993

This is true except for Game of Thrones. It seems Grant doesn't mind taking a smaller role on popular franchises.


LostGolems

Plus in the comics old loki was a big bad who went back in time to manipulate past self and kid loki to ensure he stays a villian. This tracks with the Loki's being pruned when they turn good.


ToothisHydra

I'm down with Grant Ward as head of the TVA 😆


idClip42

You're right, I don't think Agents of SHIELD changed/resurrected him enough times. We need more Grant Wards.


mimiandjosylove

YEEES OMG


ckutasy

This would be a cool idea. I feel like Classic Loki is still alive


Captain_Mexica

It will be Grant if you're right not a copy of him. He even described escaping Thanos by becoming a piece of debris


ptlee82

Same, but I don't think it's a variant of Grant, it's the same Grant. I think Grant's stated backstory is half-true. I think the Sacred Timeline is an infinite loop. Grant was just like Tom Hiddleston who traveled to the Void, entered the castle, then presented with a choice. Grant chose to become the villainous despot that creates the TVA, denies free will to the masses like Loki's speech in the first Avengers movie, and then lives in isolation at the end of time. (I think Grant's fake backstory is half true, he missed his brother. Kid Loki is probably a mind-controlled Kid Thor that Grant tricks into thinking he's a Loki that killed his Thor.) Tom Hiddleston's loop is up and he is faced with the same choice. Follow Grant's path and become the villainous despot that creates the TVA (killing Sylvie), or choose to live with Sylvie, giving free will to the masses as a consequence. The three timekeepers are representations of Old Loki, Younger Loki, and Sylvie. Younger Loki has to kill Sylvie to become Old Loki and found the TVA. Tom Hiddleston breaks the loop by choosing Sylvie. Maybe an action scene involving Kid Thor getting freed from his mind control and fighting Old Loki. Multiverse of Madness happens when Tom Hiddleston doesn't create the TVA, meaning the TVA's central mission was actually real on some level. Wilder prediction is that epilogue has Mobius returned to the 90s with his Jet Ski. Ravonna is there with him. They have a kid in the 90s. Grows up to be Jonathan Majors in Quantumania. Quantumania's plot is Schroedinger's Kang, Jonathan Majors finding his parents' time traveling stuff and uncertainty over whether Jonathan Majors becomes one of his more villainous incarnations or one of his more heroic incarnations.


buckeyebrat97

Imo I think it’s either a Loki variant or He Who Remains, person who created the TVA in the comics.


minnesotawild4life

Remember my comment. Jonathan Majors will appear as an alternate version of Kang and we will get an explanation why we will get multiple versions of Kang in the MCU. He is behind it all. Everyone thinks they know how it will go based on two MCU shows but I have a feeling this one will be different. Might not be the normal going forward but based on everything we have seen I feel like we actually will get the huge reveal at the end.


pagingdrsolus

RemindME! 3 days. "Was it Kang all along?"


minnesotawild4life

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minnesotawild4life

hi


pagingdrsolus

I'll take any lotto numbers for might have lying around!


ckutasy

My vote is for another Loki portrayed by Tom Hiddleston. But then we find out that Kang was pulling HIS strings in Ant-Man Quantumania


faizaan316

Kang post credit scene “Fine, i’ll do it myself”


pagingdrsolus

I can see evil Loki shooting spells at our Loki and Sylvie, he turns to her and says, you know, we really are the worst brother. A callback to Thor's jab from Ragnarok now coming from a Loki who's developed the ability to self examine.


ckutasy

Chills


cabbage16

Using a Loki plot to introduce the new big bad? "It's like poetry. It rhymes"


nofaptain-america

All-Father Loki (knowingly or not) working for Kang


yourmotherisveryfat

As much as I wish it was Kang it’ll probably be King Loki


bandella

What, no Mephisto? Seriously, though. I'm convinced it's another Loki, but there's some connection to Kang. Maybe Loki is acting as yet another Big Bad's henchman, I don't know. But I'm also thinking it's someone who can cast illusions/enchantments, as I fully expect that's where we're going to see the trailer shot of King Loki, and maybe another scenario of them offering Sylvie the chance to be the one good Loki or even a valkyrie. We know Loki can cast illusions and Sylvie can enchant people, obviously, so what if it's that other theory floating around about it actually being Loki and Sylvie's child running things? That would also explain the spike from Ep 4: not that they were falling in love, necessarily (or maybe?), but that they weren't supposed to die there because they *have* to create their weirdo little offspring to rule the TVA. It very much relies on the "time is a flat circle" theory, and there's definitely an element of Back to the Future in there. It's also probably completely bogus, given it seems the romance subplot was more of an afterthought that only got brought to the surface through editing, but it's an intriguing idea, anyway. On the one hand, I loved the way Classic Loki went out and I don't want his death cheapened by it being yet another case of "oh, you thought Loki died? You must be new here." But on the other hand, it's also *such* a Loki move that it feels right. All I know is I want both Prime Loki and Sylvie to make it through the series. We've already seen that Loki will sacrifice himself for the right cause (primary MCU Loki for Thor, Classic Loki for a greater good/just to stick it to fate). We don't need to see it again, as it would just be reductive at this point. I'm also very much hoping they don't pull a fast one and turn Sylvie into a villain. I just want these crazy kids to be happy, dammit, whether that's as a couple or friends or whatever.


pagingdrsolus

That has been bothering me since it happened and I'm halfway resigned I won't get a satisfactory answer. They are hiding in an apocalypse, the destruction of lamentis. We have already established in Pompeii that nexus energy cannot be created in an apocalypse. Loki goes nuts, yells at people, frees pigs, with nary a blip on the temp pad. Loki and Sylvie touch, and create a huge spike of nexus energy deviating from timeline. This would dictate that this Lamentis should be saved, as there is no apocalypse to conceal it but they get saved with no explanation. This is a remarkable plot point. Coincidence should always get your characters into trouble, never same them, but as it stands, their love is a Deus ex machina in need of explanation.


bandella

There are several plot holes and unexplained issues in the show that I genuinely think are the result of the super-condensed timeline. Like, this is two seasons' worth of a show being crammed into six episodes. In an ideal world, S1 would have *just* been about Mobius and Loki doing their buddy cop shtick and it slowly being revealed through less in-your-face clarity that the TVA isn't what it seems. Ep. 2, with some minor reworking, would have made a great season finale in this imaginary scenario. Season 2 would have been the second half of this season, with the TVA unraveling and Loki and Sylvie coming to terms with themselves and each other. It would have made their relationship, whatever that entails, less contrived if it was allowed to happen naturally instead of played in fast-forward mode. It also would have made Loki's transition into an antihero (or even a straight up hero) way more believable. We're supposed to believe that 2012 Loki, whose mind was a "bag of cats" and who was still no doubt feeling the effects of the Mind Stone (not to mention still bitter as hell), has changed this much in such a short amount of time? I just don't buy it. It's not necessarily the writing itself, as the bones are good. It's just the six-episode miniseries model that undermines everything. But yeah. I think one of those traps the writers set up for themselves was "wait, if nexus events *can't* happen in an apocalypse, then what the hell happened on Lamentis-1?" It seems like such a *really* glaring plot hole that I'll be surprised if it doesn't get addressed in the finale.


xxxartistrashxxx

In the second episode, they explain that it's not that Nexus energy CANNOT be created, it's just that during an apocalypse, any shifts in Nexus energy are negligible since an entire end-of-the-world event is happening, covering it up. So Loki doing all that crazy stuff on Pompeii wouldn't have moved the dial since they were literally all about to be destroyed with no hope of escape. On Lamentis, the act of two Lokis falling in love was such a mega-powerful shift that it was noticed by the TVA. A bit of a convenience, but it works with their internal logic.


pagingdrsolus

If this is the case, I think they could have improved their visual language to convey this When Mobius looks at temp pad in Pompeii, when Loki is causing a ruckus, there is no deviance from sacred timeline whatsoever. Had the shown a dashed line, or a branching line that fizzled out, or was ghostly/static like nexus energy was in the process of being created but couldn't get formalized, then I would buy that their love is a powerful enough event to overcome an apocalypse. But as it stands, they could fall in love or have a baby or anything but they're on a planet that gets annihilated in minutes. How does that create a new timeline that the TVA can detect on their temp pads?


Lumisteria

My theory is that we saw later that they can both use the other's power, since Loki helped her for the enchant, so maybe she would have been able to help him with the telekinesis he used just some moment before, preventing the entire apocalypse entirely, maybe ? This would explain the existence of the spike and its rapidity. But the main issue is that they were not really in a mood of fighting it at this point, so it's not perfectly making sense either. Unless they realise they have a chance when connecting.


ptlee82

If Mobius gets his 90s jetski when all is said and done, and if he has a kid in the 90s with Ravonna, that kid would be Jonathan Major's age in Quantumania. Or, maybe Hunter B 15 has a kid who decides to mess with time.


Hmm_would_bang

Oh I'm 100% certain Sylvie is going to backstab Loki in some way at the end. Loki isn't going to get a happy ever after story, and the previous episode really hammered home that Loki's always betray each other. Maybe they both get out alive still though, and this is the series that actually gets a second season, just keeping this Loki isolated from the prime timeline instead of bringing him back.


bandella

As a fan and someone who really *does* just want these crazy kids to be happy, I sincerely hope they don't end up betraying each other. But as a writer myself, and looking at it from a narrative perspective...man, that's a lot of temptation to pass up. I still haven't seen anything set in stone about a second season. All sorts of rumors, but nothing official. And Waldron has said he conceived of the show as being self-contained and able to exist on its own with just six episodes. My issues with the condensed timeline and how contrived a lot of the show feels boils down to that six-episode format, but putting those aside, I don't know. I still think it would be awfully shortsighted of Marvel to introduce a character like Sylvie and then get rid of her immediately after when a lot of fans have really taken to her. So I have a feeling that if anyone betrays anyone, it's going to be her betraying Loki. I don't know how keen Tom is on returning yet again, but I would 100% be up for more variant madness.


Mojo_So_Dope_

Castle Le Fay. Morgan Le Fay connects Wanda, Strange, Doom, Dark Avengers, and she can turn all the Lokis into the Black Priest.


Cardinal_and_Plum

And runaways, though that would be unnecessary. Id watch Hurley in the role again.


davebenner14

My vote is the “one who remains” who also happens to be a Loki variant who also happens to be working with Kang behind the scenes (and we get a Thanos in Avengers 1 type cameo)


The_Iceman2288

I'm 90% sure it's a Loki. But I'm also pretty sure that we'll see Kang in some way, shape or form.


pagingdrsolus

My gut is aligned with your gut


Sidders1993

Gut buddies!


pagingdrsolus

Gutties!


Observer424

I was thinking Immortus in some fashion. He’s not as fleshed out as Kang and it would make sense that’s the end of the line for him.


thunderbolts99mcu

One only pick Miss minutes


UniversalNoir

Mobius is a Loki who has imprisoned Kang (Ravonna's lover) and look back at all their conversations he was holding the power not her, she was playing the role he demanded on cost of Kang's life. True mindfuck


Vinnrek

if it is Loki I hope its a Loki that's conned and schemed his way to the top rather than a Loki that created the TVA. I think it'd be interesting if it ended up being the first Loki to get pruned, he found a way into the palace and over time he manage to ingratiate himself into the inner circle of whoever lived there before him, maybe its Immortus and he then became someone like wormtongue was to theoden in LOTR then we have an end credit scene of Renslayer finding Kang through her research into the creation of the TVA and we get a juxtaposition between the future Kang and Present Kang playing into the Fate/Free Will stuff and the everything happens at once stuff


Lumisteria

I'm in the favor of the Loki variant from a while now, i don't read the comics so Loki sounds like a natural choice for lot of reason, main being the title of the screen and the different letters being used : it's all about Loki. I saw an interesting theory about the identity of the variant, someone said that it could be one looking like Sylvie. Loki facing himself would have impact in a lot of way, but he would probably not be really off balance. He knows he can be that bad, and fighting himself is kinda in the direct line of what he did until now, so this isn't really the final trial. But facing someone that looks like Sylvie ? Sylvie, the hope of being able to be better, Sylvie, the one he cares about (whatever the relation is), Sylvie he just promised not to betray ? This would destabilize him enough for the villain to use it against him.


Less3r

Not familiar with the comics but have read some wiki, according to info I've read it's more likely to be Immortus than Kang, since he prefers time to be orderly (sacred timeline) than Kang the Conqueror who thinks that a chaotic multiverse is more "the way of the warrior" as it should be. Per the wiki page https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nathaniel_Richards_(Immortus)_(Earth-6311) "He prunes the chronal branches that others deem dangerous"


Datelesstuba

Immortus is Kang, but Kang in the future.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ckutasy

Yeah, I feel like it makes most sense with how past D+ shows have ended. Only thing that gives me pause for Kang is how there have been ppl that have said that Loki will have more affect on the MCU than the last two shows. Who knows


[deleted]

[удалено]


Worthyness

Kang is definitely in the cards for post credit clip though. Perhaps revona will be a part of that


bluetable321

I think it’s not only only another Hiddleston Loki, but that it is *our* Loki. Meaning the Loki that we watched through Dark World, Ragnarok, and Infinity War. I think he faked his death (just like Classic Loki) and afterwards got picked up by the TVA. He then did the thing Mobius predicted the Loki from this series would try: “Charm your way in front of the Timekeepers, hustle them, and seize control of the TVA.” But I think he was successful and is actually now in control. Recently the Loki from this series has begun to see the capacity for good in other versions of himself (Sylvie, Classic Loki). I think before the end he’ll need to face just how evil he is capable of being as well. How much harsher will that moment be if the evil Loki behind the curtain is the closest version of him there is? What better metaphor for personal growth than literally killing your past self?


pagingdrsolus

I love the theme. But our Loki is a reformed Loki too. Dark World, Ragnarok, and Infinity War have moved this character far from his invasion of new York self, just as the events of this series has pushed this variant Loki into a better headspace. I don't think they want to rob from Peter to pay Paul. Why turn film Loki back into a villain, when they can just as easily write a new Loki that never matured as the villain?


Dominicsjr

I like the theory it’s the Loki from the timeline Thanos travels to the future. Would explain why the TVA allows the events of Endgame to happen.


luamercure

Doesn't Classic Loki fulfill this role though? He was meant to be *our* Loki with everything happening to him as they did through the MCU timeline, just plus years and years of solitude after faking his death by Thanos. Hiddleston Loki even introduced him as "us but from the future"


[deleted]

>Wandavision gives us witch vs. witch and Vision vs. Vision. FATWS gave up Capt. America vs. Capt. America. The trope of hero having to battle their "shadow" is too tempting for Marvel to pass up. Or, after doing it twice, they recognize it's old hat and do the opposite. We should also consider the diminishing effect of meeting a new Loki variant when we've met so many already. I especially think they wouldn't have done President Loki if we were getting an evil Hiddleston in the very next episode.


pagingdrsolus

After finishing last week's episode, I thought that Prez. Loki had a really rushed screen time. He find the hatch, gets betrayed, and loses a hand. I thought, damn, that would have been a great foil for Loki to see how far he's come and how significantly his change of character has been since meeting Sylvie and.... Oh...they're saving that for next episode. Duh. Also, Marvel hasn't just been doing it for two d+ shows. They have literally been doing it for over a decade. Every MCU hero's first film features them fighting their shadow. Warmonger. Abomination. Loki. Red Skull. Killmonger. Yellow Jacket. Yon Rogg. Mandarin. It's lazy but it's also effective because it's basic storytelling. I don't think the question is "are they lazy enough to do it again" It's "have they encountered *any* reason to not do it again?


lerkinrouns

after doing it twice they may recognize? i think you are forgetting about ironman, the incredible hulk, ironman2, captain america, antman, and black panther, and a couple scenes in endgame. so yeah i'd put my money on the big bad bein a loki


Sidders1993

I'm asking myself two questions: * Who benefits from permitting the Avengers to go back through time to defeat Thanos and his army, effectively removing them from the Sacred Timeline? * And who *needs* Loki *in* the Sacred Timeline until 2019 so he can bring about the death of Odin and aid in the destruction of Asgard? I can't quite see how it can be King Loki. There is someone who needed these threats removed for a bigger play.


pagingdrsolus

Oh man. I hadn't really thought of trying to piece together a motive based on timeline. So are Loki and Sylvie foiling the plan? Or being moved like pawns as part of a larger scheme? If the true goal was to get Sylvie and Loki on that void planet to enchant Alioth and reveal location of the man behind the curtain, then I could see King Loki or Classic Loki being the manipulator.


Sidders1993

No worries man. It just makes more sense to me to do it that way than to try and predict based on what MS has done before, especially considering how *Loki* is doing things a lot differently than the standard Marvel fare. I can see the attraction of both a Loki variant and a Kang variant (my money is on Immortus personally). King Loki would allow for some excellent thematic closure for our Loki, but Immortus makes the most sense if we look at the narrative. It could very well be both, but I have a suspicion the footage of King Loki we've seen will be a temptation by Immortus, but not a wholly villainous one. Immortus is a character who could be written with empathy: a sombre, reserved variant of Kang who has given up his conquering days and is using the Sacred Timeline to stave off a bigger threat: his younger self. For centuries he'll have had to make unethical decisions to destroy countless lives and timelines in order to preserve a flow of events that prevents Nathaniel Richards from becoming Kang the Conqueror. Immortus knows what he's doing is wrong, but it's necessary because he's done all of what Kang has done and feels his regret as well as the pain he has caused. Now, he accepts the debt of his conquering days as the final protector of the Sacred Timeline and built the TVA to carry on his work after he dies. This is my favoured outcome because it poses a dilemma between our two protagonists. Our Loki would agree with Immortus and be tempted to accept a pocket Timeline where he is King and a benevolent leader - not a villain - but one who is worshipped and loved. He, I imagine, will ultimately decline but not before considering it. Sylvie however, and her belief that the universe demands chaos, won't have any of it, and will see Immortus as her mission. Driven by revenge and a need to allow the natural flow of events - unfettered by Immortus and the TVA's interjections - she will kill Immortus and thus the multiverse will break open. It'd also be an *actual* twist when, as the Sacred Timeline and Castle Immortus is collapsing, a younger Kang bursts through a portal all maniacal like, and attempts (or succeeds) in killing Sylvie. Okay that last part kind of got away from me a bit, but I just love the idea of Kang's first appearance canonically being his last narratively. It would make a future interaction between Kang the Conqueror and our Loki very interesting.


pagingdrsolus

This is a great pitch. It has so much more weight when the protagonist and antagonist s have completely different missions they are trying to accomplish beyond just stopping the other. Also I'll go ahead and lay down a bet that if we see an older version of Kanf which will be played by Jonathan Majors in quantumania, then perhaps we'll see Forest Whitaker or Keith David as Immortus.


Hmm_would_bang

>And who needs Loki in the Sacred Timeline until 2019 so he can bring about the death of Odin and aid in the destruction of Asgard? Ah, just as I suspected, the Mangog


RikersTrombone

The answer to the mystery is spelled out quite cleverly if you know what to look for. Miss minutes is the key. Everyone assumed she was a simple representation of a clock, however she is depicted with 16 divisions instead of the usual 12, and in episode 1 at approximately 6:55 we see a TVA clock which is also not a standard clock but a 24 hour clock. So why 16? >!Hexadecimal!< happy hunting.


captain_crowfood

You really think a minor telepath with the ability to manipulate machinery is behind the Time Variance Authority?


pagingdrsolus

I believe the hexadecimal clue is meant to reference the 'hex' in wandavision. So a Wanda variant, or Strange is what they're alluding to (I believe) But lol imagine if it's some scrub homeless mutant no one's ever heard of behind everything


captain_crowfood

I see where you're going. For a second there though I was like, wtf?


pagingdrsolus

I'm not RikersTrombone but yeah, I thought the same thing Googled "hexadecimal" and it's actually a d list mutant in marvel comics. So I had to put thinking cap on. What is this guy talking about?


ponodude

I don't know if you're kidding or not, but hexadecimal is a base-16 numbering system going from 0-9 and then A-F, implying that there's probably some hexadecimal decoding that could be done to solve the mystery somewhere. I assume you googled "hexadecimal marvel" rather than just "hexadecimal" which yield wildly different results lol.


pagingdrsolus

I see where you're coming from but this seems like quite the stretch. RikersTrombone is claiming that next episode's villain is *clearly spelled out* But we need to use a hexadecimal cipher to decode the solution? And this user has done it and knows the answer but is being coy? I don't think that's their intention. I believe putting hexadecimal in spoiler tag is supposed to be their bet on the hex theme that ran through Wandavision's visual motifs. But I'll bite. u/RikersTrombone what sequence in what episode do I need to apply a hexadecimal cipher to? If that's what you were suggesting. Edit:. I'm dumb. Trombone said *cleverly* spelled out, not clearly. They also mentioned in another comment they were referring to a decoding cipher, not the hex theme of wandavision. My bad. Misunderstood.


RikersTrombone

Not the character, it's a cypher of sorts hexadecimal is the key to translate it.


LupusNoxFleuret

> in episode 1 at approximately 6:55 we see a TVA clock which is also not a standard clock but a 24 hour clock. Are you talking about the clock behind the guy who hands Loki the stack of everything he's ever said? I can only barely see a blurry bottom half of that clock so I have no idea how you can decipher something like that.


pagingdrsolus

Holy shit. Hexadecimal is a poor mutant with the power to turn machines into beasts! Mobius drives a pizza car! Hexadecimal lives in Madripoor, home to shadowbroker! Sharon (Ms. Carter is ya nasty) is the big bad behind the TVA! It was there right I'm front of us!


jaycah9

Seems pretty convoluted


Netwinn

I thought the spoiler was a Reboot reference, and I got way to excited.


kuribosshoe0

Hawkeye drawing a long bow over here.


jedwards8th

That's reallllllly stretching


helpmegetgood98k

am I the only one who isn't really into the Tom Hiddleston villain idea? I'll rather take Kang/Doom/HWR any day


pagingdrsolus

I think they can tell a meaningful story with villain Loki. But honestly, an outrageous villain reveal would be fricking sweet


helpmegetgood98k

agreed and yes people will start calling the show shit if they don't like the finale, we've seen it happen before


pagingdrsolus

Confidently say with some distance from the finale of both Disney plus shows so far that it's easy to remember the good parts. But I will admit in the immediate aftermath of a series finale sometimes the door notes ruin what's otherwise a great experience


hellou12356

It’s Kang. His love interest was running the tva and they showed his domain at the end of the episode when they opened that portal/ rift


pagingdrsolus

I imagine they will allude to Kang as having initiated the TVA, set things in motion, but some Loki along the way overthrew him, tricked him out of his throne, or when he went to confront Kang, all he found was a deserted palace. Because there is so much pointing to him! But yeah I think Marvel would prefer the catharsis of Loki overcoming his demons by facing off against himself rather than pit him against a new adversary in the last episode.


hellou12356

I think kang is in charge but Loki’s are variables that he can’t control. Loki’s act randomly and always cause mischief so he puts them as a top threat


pagingdrsolus

So Kang is the Matrix architect and Loki is Neo, vis a vis, concordantly, inexorably and un·e·quiv·o·cal·ly, love breaks the Matrix.


hellou12356

Basically yes. The only way it’s not kang is if they’re saving him for a faceoff with dr strange and the witch in MOM. Because young avengers is going to be setup by the end of that series/movie


pagingdrsolus

Does the precedent set by either FatWS or WandaVision of not introducing a big villain in the final episode cause you to doubt they will for this series?


hellou12356

You make valid points but Yes I think loki is different from the others


captain_crowfood

Have you stopped to think that the Ravonna in the show is just a variant of the real Ravonna Renslayer?


hellou12356

Even if she is she’s the one that will be his love interest. If she was unimportant she would have been sent to the void as well. He obviously put her in charge because he likes her


captain_crowfood

Not if he just specifically chooses variants of super powered individuals as employees. You don't find it funny that they've revealed every employee to be a variant and we've only heard two of their actual names while everyone else is a number?


RoboticCurrents

Three; Ravonna, Mobius, Casey.


captain_crowfood

You're right, I forgot about ol Casey.


ptlee82

K.C. Kang the Conqueror You heard it here first.


captain_crowfood

See I was thinking he might be Molecule Man and maybe that's the twist is that Marvel plans on intertwining the old 1980s Secret Wars into the more recent Secret Wars.


[deleted]

In addition to Renslayer and Mobius, we also know Casey, a low-level agent, of which there are many. Renslayer was designated A-23 when she was a Hunter. I guess when you're promoted out of Hunter duty, you get a name. I don't see why that would be the same name as the real person you once were though. We'll see.


hellou12356

Sylvie had to touch them to get them to remember. Mobius was convinced because part of his old self was still there. The rest are all kind wiped going with the flow


captain_crowfood

I think if she were the real Ravonna or if she was a variant that Kang hand selected. She'd have a better idea of what was going on.


hellou12356

Could be a plot twist where when she was promoted she agreed to a memory wipe to keep the TVA act going. Remember she said TVA still needs order even though the time keepers were fake


hellou12356

I TOLD YOU


captain_crowfood

That wasn't Kang nor did they confirm whether the Ravonna on the show is Ravonna prime.


hellou12356

That was kang they just changed his name to prevent spoilers now we will have the young avengers one and the main villain one in the next few movies


captain_crowfood

It was a variant of the person that becomes Kang. The whole purpose of that scene was to state that Kang hasn't been in control because He Who Remains is preventing his existence. Now that he is dead, Kang is inevitable.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jaycah9

You had me for a little and then lost me very quickly


Threeve303

It's going to be a variant Thanos-copter. Did anyone else see it last episode???


pagingdrsolus

We all saw it! It wasn't subtle lol!


tenphes31

[Here is a video](https://youtu.be/8RMQ0VR_jJE) breaking down who this person thinks is the big bad, though spoiler alert, they agree with you


pagingdrsolus

Do you think they'll surprise us with a villain we don't see coming?


tenphes31

Personally, I think not. Theres an outside chance Kang will get name dropped but as the video details, a lot of this show is about redemption and moving on from his flaws, so the most poetic big bad is another Loki, but disillusioned or straight up evil.


[deleted]

It was Mephisto all along.


TTTTgunner

It’s in the trailer already! It’s going to be king Loki variant


pagingdrsolus

I believe that will be part of a fantasy sequence the villain will use to try and tempt Loki into joining his side.


TTTTgunner

Yes, I hope so. Would be bad on Disney’s marketing to show the final villain in the trailer that came out before Loki even started.


EatSmallLiftSmall

I think it will be Silvie.


pagingdrsolus

The long con


helpmegetgood98k

i actually hope marvel does actually take a pass on that trope, but that's just my opinion


pagingdrsolus

Guardians did such a good job breaking the mold the first film. Then they went out of their way to make sure hero and villain had same powers for sequel lol.


Bob25Gslifer

Anyone else not want Kang? The payoff is so much less when it's an unrelated big bad in a tv show ark not a multiple film cinematic universe. Unless Kang is setting up season 2 of Loki or quantumania.


pagingdrsolus

Do we have any examples of unrelated big bad reveal in final episode? I'm sure it happens just can't think of any.


Stormingbret

I think it will be a Loki variant but Kang will some how play into the finally. Like he will be what that Loki was trying to keep contained or maybe who he is currently fighting. Something like that.


littlewozo

I believe it's the "real" Ravonna running things. The one in the TVA is a variant. The Sacred Timeline is one where Kang stays cooped up in Chronopolis, and the Loki squad is going to mess that up royally.


carson63000

I also think Ravonna, although I think it’s perfectly possible the one we’ve seen so far is the only one, not a variant. Her scene with Sylvie leading up to Sylvie pruning herself felt an awful lot like she was playing for time until her guards could arrive and help her.


Opololoko

what if classic loki found the pruned infinity stones in episode 1 and use space stone to create a portal to escape the battle of lokis and use reality stone to create a massive illusion


echoess84

I think it could be another Loki behind the TVA but Tom Hiddleston said his favorite episode is the episode 5 where he played Loki and an other Loki version (president Loki). so I think don't know if there will be another Loki portayed by Hiddleston...


joe_hello

I hope that it is Kang rather than another Loki variant. Kevin Feige did say that Loki would have “More Impact On The MCU Than Any Show So Far” ([source](https://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/loki-impact-mcu-kevin-feige-exclusive-image/)). After episode 2 I thought he was referring to the reset charges bombing the sacred timeline causing the upcoming Multiverse of Madness, but that hasn’t been mentioned since by the TVA when you think they’d be scrambling to fix it. So if the big bad does end up being Kang then that could be what Feige was referring to. But if I was to gamble on it, I think it will end up being a Loki variant, judging how the other Disney+ series have had similar reveals. I will be a little disappointed if it is, but overall it has been a really enjoyable series so it won’t ruin it for me.


pagingdrsolus

Bombing the timeline was made out to be a huge deal. I thought it would have major reprecussions. But during Renaissance fair they show that a reset charge will only disintegrate/vaporize objects or people that don't belong on the timeline. So in theory you could set off a hundred reset charges in a subway station, as. Long as everything is sacred timeline approved, it's not a big deal. But bombing the timeline created thousands of nexus events which shouldn't happen unless the TVA was moving variants around and inserting them in sacred timeline to achieve some desired outcome.


Cardinal_and_Plum

My guess is still He Who Remains, but I wouldn't be mad if it was Grant or Kang. The others I'd be less enthusiastic about I think, but I'm open to whatever.


Areco77

i will like to say about all the kang theory that if the man behind curtain is kang then there would be someone in front of him and kang would be just teased by end of the series


szeliminator

Introducing a new character in the final act is generally poor story writing, that I can't see the villain bring Kang. I would not be surprised, however, if we get a Kang teaser in a post credits scene. As for who the villain is, a Loki variant makes sense, perhaps one wielding an infinity gauntlet.


buddha-piff

Loki, but played by Chris Hemsworth.


BettyVonButtpants

My left field pick is Wanda. She could be looking for an reality with her children, found the TVA, took over, and is now building a timeline to lead to her children. This is a left field pick, and just based on if this ties in multiverse of madness, and the possibility that Wanda may appear as a villain.


BashMaddox1998

It’s not another Loki, this is crazy. It legit wouldn’t make any sense at all, this is a canon show. So Since marvel didn’t put a big bad enemy in the last two shows means they never will and it’s not a priority. Ok. How can we compare the past two shows to this one lol, it’s different fucking writers. Kang/Immortus are the best candidate to be the big bad behind the curtains.


pagingdrsolus

So I don't think the biggest argument against the big bad being Kang or another big villain is that Marvel wouldn't put them into a d+series, but rather, they would not introduce them in the last episode of said series. Kang could absolutely have been the main antagonist in this series, and we would have had multiple episodes where we explore his motivations, and give him and our mtiple protagonists opportunities to have dialogue with each other, and possibly skirmish, leading up to the big finale. Saving the reveal for the final episode when we still have so many other threads that need to be addressed, does make a great twist, but it comes at the expense of a lot of characterization and exploration of the villain. For comparison, imahine if John Walker as Captain America had been saved for the final episode of FaTWS. Or if it he Agatha reveal had been saved for the final episode. Maybe the twists would have been better, but we would not have had the time across multiple episodes to get to know these characters and why we should oppose them. Just my two cents tho.


ptlee82

More support for a "Loki" behind the curtain * TVA is the "child" of a Loki (Jorgmungandr) * Sacred Timeline is an infinite cycle/loop, like Jorgmungandr biting its own tail. The TVA bookends both the beginning and end of time, connecting the loop. * Light looping around the castle is a visualization of the Sacred Timeline * Breaking the loop (Jorgmungandr letting go of its tail) is a sign of Ragnarok (multiverse of madness)


Weaving_Mantis

My pet theory I’ve been nursing since the first episode is the Living Tribunal is the main “villain”, but he of course doesn’t think he’s a villain, he’s just maintaining the multiverse to prevent chaos. My reasons: 1. The TVA is one of the most powerful forces in existence as stated in the first episode and the Living Tribunal would be powerful enough to create something like the TVA 2. All the depictions of the Time Keepers are reminiscent of the Living Tribunal, from a storytelling perspective this makes it less confusing if he’s revealed to be behind it all (his head also makes an appearance in the last episode, so there’s that) Bringing in a new villain at the end wasn’t possible for WV and F&WS because those shows aren’t getting another season and needed to wrap up their storylines, Loki’s different. It has to get the hype train rolling for the next season so bringing in a brand new character is within the realm of possibilities. Another theory I have that I am not very attached to and is probably wrong, but it has to do with the Time Keepers being lizards (which Loki reiterates a few times). I am not overly familiar with Kang, but I’m pretty sure he’s not a lizard, the Living Tribunal isn’t a lizard either. But you know who are lizards? Skrulls. And they keep popping up so maybe they’ve been posing as the Time Keepers or something. The lizard thing is bothering me so that’s what I came up with. I can also see it being another Loki though, it is the name of the show after all.


-Darkslayer

Unless he's working for Kang, another variant Loki would be the lamest possible outcome, especially because the last 2 shows ended in similar fashion. I'm sorry, but MCU Loki has not demonstrated the capability to be able to take control of all of time. It would really feel weird unless he is backed by Kang or some other more powerful force.


Hanzzman

Mobius is playing K from MIB, Loki is J. Mobius is training his replacement, to continue runing the TVA. Sylvie does not accept it, and "destroys" the TVA or releases the agents and their prisoners, Then we see a diying old Sylvie variant and we learn that she is the one who blocks the TVA agents memories. So, Loki and a reluctant series Sylvie take their roles as the new Time Keepers. and they start to pursue the newly released prisoners. So, the "sacred timeline" is only a collection of "plot points" that need to be done to avoid some future disaster, and the TVA prune whatever variant who can change the future for the worse. Loki not killing the son of Coul? no Avengers. Loki a good guy? no Avengers. In the postcredits scenes, we see that one of the released prisoners is Kang, or recover a Kang-themed item. Or kills a Kang variant.


ZachfromOhio

I think it will be an evil Loki portrayed by Tom Hiddleston who is working directly under Kang, much like Loki in the Avengers was working under Thanos. Loki is definitely setting up Kang the Conqueror as the next big bad but I think he is too big of a villain to introduce in the finale of a series.


pagingdrsolus

Okay here we go. Gonna flip the script here, hold onto something I'm about to rian Johnson the hell out of your expectations here. Ready? Forget evil Loki. Main antagonist? Worthy Loki. Our Loki has to embrace his chaos, his mischief, and his true nature to go toe to toe with the ultra strict, completely reformed variant Loki, who now wields Mjolnir.


ZachfromOhio

Me likey THAT


Hanzzman

What if the bad guy is the lost son of Hank Pym and Janet? lets assume she was pregnant when she went into quantum world. So, Janet and Pym boy created the TVA to funnel the timelines into avoid some unespecific event in the future. If Loki escaped or went the good guy path, we got no Avengers team - up, Odin/Hela uses the gauntlet and conquer the universe, Dark elves win on TTDW, Asgard is destroyed before Ragnarok, whatever apocaliptic timeline event *before the big bad timeline event*, and they prune that timeline. After Janet went back into her timeline, as seen on the "Antman and the wasp" documentary, the pym boy has screwed too much and creates what they wanted to avoid. So, Pym boy ask Loki to join him because he is the one who can fix the timelines, as foretold by Frigga, but sylvie had had enough. They fight, they destroy some critical equipment, the TVA is screwed, Sylvie realizes that she screwed the multiverse and accepts to become the third timekeeper. Lemme add, when I say "Pym boy" i mean "Mobius". Mobius is the man behind the curtain. He wanted to return to his real life, but did not ask Sylvie to unblock his mind (like C15).


pagingdrsolus

Whoa this is an awesome crazy idea Hope has a brother born and raised in Quantum realm. Could be a great candidate for Arcturus or Acroyear if they decide to pursue the Micronauts.


hellou12356

Please watch the finale and come back so we can discuss it


pagingdrsolus

Spoiler for final episode of Loki ahead: Holy. Hell. Never been happier to be wrong on a prediction before. We didn't just get a glimpse of Kang, a post credit stinger, or a name drop. We got the origin. We got the inciting incident that will start the domino chain that leads us to Kang (Conqueror). Majors killed it. Over half the episode was an exposition dump having to explain Kang and the timeline and the Multiverse but his animated performance kept the pace moving. What did you think about He Who Remains?


hellou12356

It was amazing. In the comics he who remains is a totally different person from kang but they merged the story/characters together perfectly. Putting loki in a different timeline/universe with kang for a possible season 2. I can’t wait for the multiverse of madness, Quantimania and young avengers!!!’


pagingdrsolus

I don't know if it counts as foreshadowing or not, but Sylvie being an amalgamation of Loki and Enchantress from comics ended up being a clever setup to He who Remains and Kang. I hope Kang the Conqueror keeps the manic persona of the Kang from ep6 (what are we calling him). Initially I thought the over the top scenery chewing performance from Majors was a way to help distinguish this variant from the Conqueror we will see in the future. If that KC is sinister and restrained, it will reinforce to viewer that this is a wholly other person, not a literally reincarnated character. Buuuuuut, now I hope the Conqueror Kang keeps this personality for a few reasons: 1. It will play well off of Rudd in Quantumania. Imagine a villain that can trade one liners with Rudd. 2. We hopefully have another arrogant, serious and stoic Conqueror coming down the MCU pipeline sometime soon and there is only room for one DOOM. A fun loving, teasing Kang would help avoid comparisons.


hellou12356

I’m praying to god that MOM with strange has the house of M storyline with the witch and she either bends reality or timeline with x-men or F4 Easter egg. That’s what got me the most hype is the ability to play with different licenses now and have then blend the story to canon. Like F4 and x-men had their own thanos event


pagingdrsolus

Dude. Strange, Wanda and either Sylvie or Loki having to team up to deal with Nightmare or whoever, would be a dream. The strange and thanos duel on Titan is one of my favorite action scenes in the MCU, it reminded me of Dumbledore vs. Voldemort in OotP. Both scenes do this remarkable job of showing a duel where the magic is limited to the imagination if the user. No words spokeb, none if them are explaining to audience what they need to do to counter attack but the imagery makes it clear who is on offense and who is on defense and who is surprising the other I eally really hope we get an epic evolution of this kind of scene with multiple different magic users, as opposed to I shoot green energy at you while you shoot red energy at me.


[deleted]

It would be badass if it was another Loki


pagingdrsolus

It almost has to be at this point Main protagonist? Loki. Lead female? Loki. Comedic relief? Loki. Minor villain ep. 5? Loki. That kid over there? The alligator,. Craft services? All Loki. Main bad guy:. Is a Loki. Mcu fans:. Surprised Pikachu faces


[deleted]

I really want that to be the case now haha


shaheedmalik

>Mcu fans:. Surprised Loki faces


Squatting-Turtle

Howard the Duck.


tamez_a

We were so blindsided & disappointed with Mephisto in WV that we’re ignoring Kang to settle for a variant Loki being the big bad. Lame! King Loki is the most obvious answer, this is a show full of twists! I’m going all in. Kang all the way. We already had an episode that revealed the variant Lokis. If Loki was the big bad, it would have been President Loki. A variant Loki being the big bad would literally be the most disappointing thing. Yes, I know you’ll say “BuT tHe ShOw IsNt WrItTen FoR faNs LiKe uS!” Or some dumb shit. Fuck that. I’m trusting my intuition this time.


pagingdrsolus

Respect to the dreamers!


kuribosshoe0

My scepticism doesn’t come from disappointment about Mephisto, but from a belief that they will favour a complete, wrapped up story over a villain that pops up out of nowhere who the characters have no investment in. Kang would have been amazing, if they set him up in episode 3 or 4. Now it would just be a cop out. It’s not a reveal if the audience doesn’t know or care who they are. The boat’s sailed. I’m all in on post-credits Kang, though.


EnvironmentalFun3525

Pickle Loki


Captain_Mexica

It's pretty obvious it will be Kang the conqueror and that the actor Johnathon Majors from that canceled HBO Max show Lovercraft Country will finally make his appearance.


pagingdrsolus

Do you think the general viewing audience who has no idea who Kang is will be confused by the introduction of a new villain in the last episode?


[deleted]

I keep seeing this argument and it's absurd. You absolutely can introduce a new character in the finale, when you've been setting up all along to expect a new character (the TVA creator). It's not difficult at all to introduce them and do so in a way that doesn't confuse. It's called creative writing.


pagingdrsolus

I don't mean to sound dismissive sorry. I feel like every episode is Loki interacting with a variant of himself and learning more about himself, growing. I feel like the show has laid the groundwork for a Loki vs loki battle. Loki has to strangle himself or snap his evil variant neck, a callback to Thanos doing it. They absolutely can do Kang and there's a ton of comics inspired evidence it should be Kang. And if any series was going to surprise us and subvert our expectations it's Loki, right? But then I remember Ralph Boner. And the Power Broker. Call me a party pooper but I don't think Marvel quite has a handle on how to do twist villains yet. I'd love to be wrong on this occasion though.


Captain_Mexica

I think every show has introduced new characters that WILL move forward into the movies. In the case of this show, it will be a major villain like Kang. Also while it may be his first appearance in the MCU it doesn't mean there will be some huge battle or war with him. Or maybe he swats Loki and Sylvie like flies. Who knows. I'm excited either way


yourmotherisveryfat

>But Marvel has demonstrated with the D+ shows so far that their priority is paying off character arcs, not introducing multi-film villains. sadly


Durdens_Wrath

I would love RDJ as Kang (wasn't one version of Kang a Tony Stark?) Or DOOM


TheGinger_ThatCould

I hope it’s someone who works for Kang. Kang disappeared or went into hibernation and they are holding down the fort until he gets back. It introduces the next big bad in the MCU, setting up anticipation, but isn’t too big of a fight for Loki and Sylvie. And then Loki or Sylvie is tasked with getting back to the correct timeline to inform the new avengers


quickhitz

Anyone else think there is a very small chance it could be an evil Thor?


Hanzzman

Maybe the end chapter is full of reversals. The main bad girl is an older Sylvie, so her diying on Lamentis would have screwed the timeline. Classic Loki is her assistant; only trying to leave his planet wouldn't have created any amount of variance energy... only if he had been seen by Thor or a main character would that history worked. They created the TVA to revive a Thanos level bad guy. They fight, the only chance of winning is to kill old sylvie so young Sylvie kills herself or is killed by Kermit Loki; the TVA is free, they avoid to revive the bad guy... In the post credits scene, we see that Mobius recover his memory, and starts to transform in somebody else... and Ravonna is impressed that the guy she was looking for was always near her.