T O P

Queen Victoria statue toppled in Winnipeg Canada

Queen Victoria statue toppled in Winnipeg Canada

N8theGr8

My own personal opinion on burning churches or toppling statues aside, **please avoid** advocating those things here. The sitewide admins consider it to fall into the category of advocating violence. Please see this admin comment for further clarification: https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/gvtj7a/how_should_we_moderate_comments_advocating/fsrzqql/


shineymike91

Naive question: Why aren't the people who ran these schools, that were responsible - why aren't they being brought to court? Is it a matter of too late? Most have died or too old? Is there no way the Churches involved can be held accountable via court or government?


Donahue2

It’s a damn good question and one many Canadians are demanding an answer to.


bunnyrut

research, locate the names of the people involved, and tarnish their names by finding them guilty. even if they are dead now the world should know these people are guilty. their families should know of their own history with this. and no "i was only doing what i was told to do" response should excuse anyone still alive. and if they are 100 years old they should not be given a lighter sentence. if they truly felt guilty they would have confessed already. i hope they all burn in hell for what they did. ​ edit for context: when i say "find them guilty" i mean let the *government* find them guilty. not you, the redditor. the ***law***. they should be legally found guilty by the government. a random complaint about how someone should be tried is not singling out an individual person on the internet to do what the government should do.


uddinstock

The Classic [Nuremberg defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders). Aka " I was just following orders" It has already been established that this is not a valid excuse and does not hold up in the court of law. It will not absolve one of their actions. They will and should be punished. Edit - There seems to be a lot of contradictory information about the implementation of this from the comments/replies below. Make sure you read those as well.


virusamongus

Except if you can benefit NASA then you're hired.


[deleted]

Step one: learn astrophysics Step two: heist time babyyyy


MagNolYa-Ralf

“Vhy are all dese time traverlers trying to keel me?! Im only a painter!!”


gracecase

Dude, my grandmother lived in Owens Cross Roads on the other side of Governors Mountain from Huntsville. We always thought it was cool that they had a space program there but even as a child I found it odd that they had these really good German restaurants.


_inci

Had to double check the sub I was in when I saw "Owens Cross Roads" lol.


Faglord_Buttstuff

Oof. That’s pretty dark. And true. I wish more people realized [operation paperclip ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip) really happened.


-SaC

Also, since the Catholic Church are mentioned, the [Ratlines](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjVnMGhQyOzOBj_X68oz9QK5IZQN0u63m).


VisualKeiKei

More interesting history. Qian Xuesen was one of two US scientists that handpicked all the Operation Paperclip scientists from Germany, like Von Braun. Qian was also on the Caltech Suicide Squad, JPL, the Manhattan Project, one of the American fathers of rocketry, and then was deported to China during the red scare and McCarthyism. His name was scrubbed from pop history and Von Braun's past was downplayed and Braun ended up becoming the face of American rocketry. Qian ended up getting the resources he needed for continuing research and gave China a nuclear and space program as a national hero and got an entire museum out of it. Basically the US used a genius to handpick Nazi scientists and got shafted for it, but went on to continue doing scientific accomplishments under another flag, much to the chagrin of the US. https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-54695598


HamburgerEarmuff

So, this is a common misconception and I wish people would stop propagating it. The whole reason that it wasn't allowed at the Nuremburg trials was because claiming to have been following lawful orders was absolutely a valid defense under both British and American military law. And the convening authorities of the Nuremburg trials knew this, and they knew that in many cases, it might be an adequate defense since many things the Germans were accused of doing weren't necessarily in violation of a specific law at the time. So a specific decision was made to deny Germans the very defense that allied service members received. And that decision was possibly contrary to the laws of war that the US had ratified at the time and certainly in violation of the laws of war today. That's why nobody in modern times would use the Nuremburg trials as an example of how to set up a proper military tribunal after a war. International law generally requires convening authorities to provide the same rights and procedures as available under the convening authority's court martials. And, of course, since then, the world has ratified treaties against genocide and treaties regulating combatants behavior that applies to all international conflicts, regardless of whether the other belligerents are party to the relevant treaties. But, I just wanted to make it clear that this take is wholly wrong and both US domestic law and military court martials and tribunals do allow the defense of following lawful orders.


best_of_badgers

It's even in that Wikipedia link that - *at Nuremberg* - it wasn't an absolute defense, but it could allow for leniency: > These trials, under the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal that established them, determined that the defense of superior orders was no longer enough to escape punishment, but merely enough to lessen punishment. He apparently just linked it without actually reading the article.


HamburgerEarmuff

Yes, and also generally the law recognizes coercion as a defense as well, both in domestic law and in military law. Like, if someone carjacks you and orders you to drive throw a crowded crosswalk or he'll shoot you, that could be a defense to murder or manslaughter charges. Likewise, if you fear that your command is going to have you shot or hung for disobeying orders, that's likely to be a legitimate defense.


ialsoagree

The irony, though, is that humans are extremely susceptible to following the orders of authorities. While debatably not a good representation of what the guards at the Nazi camps experienced, [the Milgram experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) showed that humans will largely follow the instructions of authority figures, even when given information that their actions could harm or kill another person, and even when given indications that they are harming or killing another person. The Netflix show [The Push](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doFpACkiZ2Q) also demonstrates how people can be manipulated into doing something as extreme as committing murder. Major spoiler for the show below: >!While the main character doesn't go through with it, every other person they performed the experiment on was willing to commit murder through peer pressure.!<


Relevant_Link_

Careful, [real historians and researchers](https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/psych-lies-and-audiotape-the-tarnished-legacy-of-the-milgram-shock-experiments/) have been putting in work on the Milgram experiment and basically calling out some serious inaccuracies in his work and study. It has become this pop-psych phenomenon that most people gravitate towards to help explain many of the things you mentioned but it actually should be taken with a very serious dose of skepticism and maybe even disregarded at this point... >Of course, the public tends to gravitate towards sensationalist material; Milgram can only be faulted so much for playing to our desire for spectacle. But Perry reveals that Milgram massaged the facts in order to deliver the outcome he sought. When Milgram presented his finding — namely, high levels of obedience — both in early papers and in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority, he stated that if the subject refused the lab coat’s commands more than four times, the subject would be classified as disobedient. But Perry finds that this isn’t what really happened. The further Milgram got in his research, the more he pushed participants to obey. In early variations of the study, those “who resisted four times [were] classified as disobedient,” but in later iterations, especially the 20th one — notably the only variation to use female participants and thus crucial to Milgram’s claims to gender universality — “the same behavior was ignored.” In fact, Williams, the actor who played the lab coat, was only instructed to stick to the script in the first two variations, after which Milgram “tacitly allowed Williams license to improvise.” Williams forced the female participants to endure far more commands than the early male subjects, prodding one female subject 26 times before she finally gave in and was classified as obedient. >This new evidence suggests that Milgram’s female subjects may have been more likely to disobey than his male subjects. **Perry also finds that in later variations, Milgram allowed Williams to ad-lib new commands.** For example, at one point Williams learned from early trials that some participants had felt obligated to follow his directions in the interest of aiding Yale in its pursuit of knowledge. He then intimated to later subjects that, if they refused to follow his orders, the entire study would be invalidated. **Milgram never mentioned these facts in any of his published writing.** **Not saying the underlining premise of people following orders is or isn't accurate** but Milgram's study should not be the benchmark for the assessment anymore or the one study people constantly bring up.


ialsoagree

It's worth pointing out that the Milgran experiment is hardly the end all of this research. Rather, Milgram's experiment merely served as the beginning of a large body of research that found consistent willingness to follow authorities. However, there is a lot of debate over how exactly it works, and what factors are most important - for example, whether some people have personalities that are predisposed to following authorities, or whether environmental or situational factors play a more significant role in the compliance of test subjects. You can read a detailed analysis of many of the studies here: [https://web.archive.org/web/20160307085220/http://stanleymilgram.com/pdf/understanding%20behavoir.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20160307085220/http://stanleymilgram.com/pdf/understanding%20behavoir.pdf) While there's definitely a lot of questions over to what extent this phenomenon occurs, and what factors have the largest impact, I think it would be a very large stretch to say that Milgram's experiment drew incorrect conclusions and people generally aren't influenced by authority. I'd definitely need some actual studies performed by psychologists and submitted to peer review to accept that claim.


KingCobraBSS

>is that humans are extremely susceptible to following the orders of authorities. Humans that are alive and/or not locked in prison. I have yet to read of a Culture that didn't **HATE** people that don't fall in line and follow orders, no matter how wrong or fucked up those orders might be.


Buttermalk

How does this factor in “Obey orders or die”? I’m 100% expecting people to self preserve than to die for their beliefs. It’s much more believable and understandable.


ChicagoGuy53

The Nuremberg defense did work for most soldiers. If your commanding officer tells you to do something in the field, it's very rare that you'd then be considered to have culpability. Even the defense itself only means that "defense of superior orders was no longer enough to escape punishment, but merely enough to lessen punishment." However where it didn't work was for commanders. They are the ones implementing the orders. That they were following broad directives does is not a sufficient defense.


jaceinthebox

Unless they are useful then they get a good government job and pardoned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip


buck9000

> research, locate the names of the people involved, and tarnish their names by finding them guilty. no, due process. you don't know who was evil and who was good in these scenarios. your approach probably satisfies your emotions in the short term, but is the wrong approach.


Nandob777

Treaty 1 & 2 were between the first people in the area and queen victoria and a lot of people consider those treaties broken, so queen victoria being the target isn’t entirely random Here are the texts for the two treaties, it’s about 12 pages: http://www.trcm.ca/wp-content/uploads/PDFsTreaties/Treaties%201%20and%202%20text.pdf


Cozman

A lot of them and maybe all of them are already dead. Though there are some adults alive still who attended these schools so who knows. It was a court case against the government about 15 years ago that prompted a government funded investigation into the residential schools in the first place. Being that it was a joint venture between the church and state, I'd imagine the indigenous peoples would have to launch another class action suit against the church now if they want to try and get some recompense out of them.


Lrivard

This issue with going against those who had the school's as early as 1996 is that they ran by the 1st nation for a few decades leading up to the end of the program. The other issue is that the real bad part of the program was run prior to WW2 and that it got better after the feds stepped in(though better, it was probably still not ideal to proper standards). The government needs push hard the church to be Heald to account for the actions they did and the feds need to push for those you started the program to be named.


Jeb_Kermin

The thing is, that would require work by the government, their entire ordeal is to throw money at people, and give them empty apologies


DreamMaster8

They are dead. Almost all of the schools were most active between 1880s and 1960s. You might find a nun still alive but the people that ran it and were in charge? Dead for decades.


GuitarPicks-12

People here appear to be to think that in 1995 indigenous children were still being taken away and abused by residential schools en masse and in 1996 they all closed suddenly. No guys, that's not how this worked. They were in decline for decades since the 50's. The last one closed in 1996, and I'm 99% sure it wasn't compulsory for anyone at that point. Yeah it's not long ago, just like Jim Crowe isn't long ago, but the people who were 60 and were running these institutions aren't alive anymore.


codythewolf

The goal wouldn't be to charge individuals, like our own little Nüremburg. It would be to charge the institutions, which is very much still around. The Canadian Government, The RCMP, and the Catholic Church of Canada all had a hand in this and they're all still around. They all also don't want to pay reparations and that's why they have been silent since this all started.


PlackBlague

The federal government made a $3 billion dollar reconciliation agreement with residential school survivors.


ZoeMunroe

They still prosecute nazis from the 1940s but we can’t prosecute priests and nuns from the 70s? C’mon.


jtinz

Last year, a 93-year-old former Nazi SS concentration camp guard was convicted by a German court.


Yukidoke

This whole story with all those native children's deaths is horror itself. The number of victims is enormous. Does the government say or do smth about that?


Ok-Outcome1273

Google: Truth and Reconciliation Canada


unforgiven91

That's a pretty good level in Halo


Jravensloot

"No Covenant." You haaaad to open your mouth.


Zeros_Deathwolf

I still get nightmares from attempting that section on legendary mode with no sniper ammo... Misery.


DogsLinuxAndEmacs

Jesus, that one hurts. It was where I decided Legendary with 5 skulls on was too much for me.


Zeros_Deathwolf

Hard to blame ya there. Even when you try to cheese it by jumping into one of the hallways where they spawn so you can hide, those elites are just too dangerous once they set their eyes on you lol. Would be nice if the ai that come with you weren't all completely useless


Cozman

The government here has previously officially acknowledged the evils committee by these schools and funded an in-depth investigation into the breadth and depth the horrors committed. As another user mention it's the truth and reconciliation commission and all the findings are publically available. Part of the commission was to engage with effected communities and figure out ways to make amends (as much as you can when it comes to cultural genocide I guess). I believe the TRC was officially wrapped up a few years ago but anger has been reignited again with the discovery of mass graves. It was known that a lot of children were unaccounted for between the poor record keeping and the fact that children were generally given "Christian names" so the mass graves might be confirmation of the worst case scenario for a lot of families that never saw their kids again. So yeah the government has tried to answer to this atrocity but the top brass of the Catholic Church is yet to acknowledge a damn thing. So the other user isnt wrong in the fact that the government wants to hear from the pope (and rightly so), they're just wrong about how our government has dealt with the residential school situation.


ToxicJettMayne

Stop saying poor record keeping. We don't know the type of record keeping because the church won't release the records. This is the official stance of the archbishop for Canada. Source: www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/article-archbishop-wont-commit-to-asking-pope-for-residential-school-apology/


Cozman

I'm kind of basing that off the situation in Ireland when reporters requested legally required records from their Catholic run child murder institutions and they didn't exist. It's not an excuse for the church by any means.


AstroCreep-2000

People replying to you, and posting elsewhere in this thread, are acting like the government has done nothing about this - a claim that is patently false. * The Canadian Government has apologized twice: In [2008](https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1100100015644/1571589171655) and again in [2017.](https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/read-justin-trudeaus-apology-to-residential-school-survivors-in-newfoundland/) * The government did an investigation and documented what they found in a [special seciton of the Truth and Reconciliation Commision.](http://www.trc.ca/assets/pdf/Volume_4_Missing_Children_English_Web.pdf) * The government has also paid [over **3 billion dollars**](http://www.iap-pei.ca/media/information/publication/pdf/FinalReport/IAP-FR-2021-03-11-eng.pdf) in compensation to survivors of residential schools.


bl1y

> People replying to you, and posting elsewhere in this thread, are acting like the government has done nothing about this - a claim that is patently false. Any time I see people saying the government "has done absolutely nothing" about an issue, I go ahead and assume the government has done quite a lot about it. Usually turns out to be true.


ChenilleSocks

A prior gov’t did formally apologize and take responsibility in 2008, (https://www.cbc.ca/archives/government-apologizes-for-residential-schools-in-2008-1.4666041 ) and current govt has earmarked millions toward finding more grave sites and reconciliation. There is of course still much to be done. The Truth and Reconciliation reports that were commissioned and released are sickening; they set out steps to take in the wake of this, and many have not been undertaken yet. The catholic church on the other hand has never apologized, refuses to hand over its records to the government, and has even burned some of them.


LilyCharlotte

It's complicated. The current group of politicians, except that one racist white lady, are pretty unified in their collective response. Meaningful systemic change and actual reconciliation, that's going to take a while. No one anyone takes seriously wants to defend or excuse what happened as anything other than the tragedy it was. I mean one Catholic priest wanted to argue there was "good" but he lost his position and is suspended until he stops saying ignorant nonsense.


OberstScythe

> until he stops saying ignorant nonsense. out loud


angrybeardude

The degree of fury required for Canadians to do such a thing is staggering.


P_B_n_Jealous

Without even a "Sorry". I'm afraid WW3 is here, if Candians are this mad.


robbycakes

“Sorey”


spottydodgy

Surrey, BC


Louieyaa

All it needed was a "Sorry, not sorry" graffiti onto it lol


ambermage

If they want notes about overthrowing the Red Coats, I think we still have ours unless Nicolas Cage borrowed it again..


P_B_n_Jealous

My great grandpappy told them they should hide them better. Damn it!


lostsoul2016

But why did this happen?


edude127

Over the past month, they’ve uncovered over 800 bodies of native children hidden in unmarked graves around “residential schools” across the country. “Residential schools” were camps where they would take the children of Natives and force their culture, language and religion out through abuse. They were extremely harmful and thousands of children were never heard from since, and now we know why Edit: Updated count is sitting at +1100 02/07 Edit2: changed “mass graves” to “unmarked graves.


nexusheli

> they’ve uncovered over 800 bodies It's over 1100 with just the 3: 1) 215 Kamloops BC 2) 751 Marieval SK 3) 182 Lower Kootenay Band BC 4) 104 Brandon MB 5) 35 (at least) Lestock SK 1285+ [Updated with a confirmed tally from locations in this Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_Indian_residential_schools_gravesite_discoveries)


brallipop

Those five schools have an average of 257 bodies recovered (I know the 751 is an outlier). If that average holds or even drops down to say 150 average per school, times the 220 total schools, that's between 33,000-56,600 dead kids. Holy shit


alwayzbored114

And if that 30,000 estimate is true, that would mean that roughly 1 in every 5 children sent to these schools were killed.


Admiral_Sarcasm

A decimation of a population would be "just" 1 in 10 being killed, but this? 1 in 5? I don't think there's any other word than Genocide to describe what happened to indigenous people in Canada (and also the United States)


SolAnise

That’s the first time I’ve heard the numbers put in that context and I think it’s incredibly important to continue to phrase it that way. A random number of dead children is heartbreaking, but difficult to wrap your mind around, it’s lacking context. There’s always sort of an issue with scale on tragedy (600 dead children is sadder than 500 dead children, but such obscenely large numbers become almost abstract because you just can’t picture it— it’s unbearably awful, but to me, at least, it feels a little fuzzy). 1 in 5 makes it clear how consistent and pervasive the deaths were.


elfthehunter

Agreed, another important context is that these schools operated for roughly 100 years (at least the four sites listed in the wiki). Hell, the most recent closed in **1997!** Edit: read u/idmacdonald comment for addition context


originalmimlet

This is 100% genocide and I don’t think anyone will let this rest for a long time. With good reason. This is horrific and an abomination.


Nerdenator

And Australia. Not sure about New Zealand. There seems to Be a patteRn here but I can’T quite put my finger on it…


Admiral_Sarcasm

i alWays wonder How just don't get IT, likE the evidence is right there.


NoCokJstDanglnUretra

Y’all should read the r/Catholicism subreddit. They handing out bans left and right for any discussion of this besides “pray for them”. I got banned for arguing with someone because they said their local catholic school has a cemetery attached to it and it’s a nonissue. Just read through some of their comments it’s truly insane shit


sr_90

https://reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/o7yu1m/megathread_residential_schools_in_canada_and/h3tlfex This is a gem. God punishes people for burning churches, but not for abuse that leads to the deaths of 1k+ (so far) children.


Admiral_Sarcasm

Holy shit even that pinned post is justifying this genocide as being caused by not enough funding and training. It's fucking delusional. ***Update: they unpinned the megathread*** Also they banned me for calling them out lmao


NoCokJstDanglnUretra

Bro just go through some of those peoples post history. I cannot believe that these people exist. I refuse to believe some of those people live in such a fantasy land. Like if they were talking that way about anything other than an established religion, these people would be committed to psych ward.


AM_JESUS_AMA

the way they talk about “satans plan to destroy the church” like every human who isn’t a catholic is working for satan…


alwayzbored114

The consequences of my actions? No, no it must be Satan Also wassup Jesus how you doin


Staggerlee89

Just looked through the post history of one of the posters there, and he posts in a sub where he / others advocate for a Theological Constitutional Monarchy and say democracy was a mistake. Yikes.


Pidder_Paddy

I left the church a while back after the one too many rounds of child molesting priests getting away once again. I couldn’t in good conscience continue to support an organization that allows that in their ranks and as this news keeps breaking I feel I made the right decision.


[deleted]

Holy shit. There’s posters there saying that the church was trying to preserve native culture and language. That’s a curious claim given the still alive people who tell us about how they’d be beaten for not assimilating…


NoCokJstDanglnUretra

A catholic Native American in one of those threads said his dad was in those churches. He was tied to a sink and fed soap every time he used his native language.


Kallisti13

Reading through their stickied thread is *infuriating*. As if I didn't have enough issue with most organized religions. All of the "the words mass grave are just used to cause panic", and "they had headstones and grave markers but they've disintegrated over time" and "the Pope definitely didn't know about it" or "just cause catholic people did it doesn't mean it's in line with the catholic church". And while I sort of agree with the last statement, it's a cop out and catholics have been using that excuse for all the horrible things the church has done since its inception. At some point these things are "in line with the catholic church"....


NoCokJstDanglnUretra

Ones an exception. Fuck it, for how big and long the Church has been around, I’ll give em 1000 as the exception. But more than that (lol) is a pattern. Centuries of these patterns of abuse…. Take a step outside the Church and look inwards people. Jesus fuckin Christ man. That goes for all religions too.


edude127

Thanks for the update!


SurveySean

It’s just sick. These are bodies that could be found, we might not ever know about the bodies that just vanished. I wonder if records were kept, as bad as these numbers are, it’s much worse than what we see. So shameful. The entire truth needs to come out. It has to, and this better get taught it schools now. It wasn’t at all when I was going to school. When I was going to school residential schools probably seemed like a normal thing to do, we always have to be weary of normalcy, and challenge those ideas. Just because something is normal clearly does not make it right. Also, Canada is not alone on its horrible treatment of Aboriginal peoples. There is just some fucked up thing that exists in our brains that we really need to fight and understand why this happens, and the path forward to make sure it doesn’t happen again.


starkgasms

Some bodies will never be found. Some schools were rumoured to burn the bodies in the furnace, especially babies who were fathered by the staff.


SurveySean

Yes, that just takes this to a whole other level of disgust. These were so called men of god. People who did that to the children are the ones less than human.


LampLighter44

“I’m Irene Favel. I’m seventy five. I went to a residential school in Muscowequan from 1944 to 1949 and I had a rough life. I was mistreated in every way. There was a young girl, and she was pregnant from a priest there. And what they did, she had her baby, and they took the baby, and wrapped it up in a pink outfit, and they took it downstairs to where I was cooking dinner with the nun. And they took that baby into the furnace room and they threw that little baby in there and burned it alive. All you could hear was this little cry, like “uuh!”. And that was it. You could smell that flesh cooking. CBC town hall forum. Regina. July 3, 2008.


pokeahontas

Don’t quote me on this, but I vaguely remember from school that they would blame a lot of the child deaths on TB and no one really looked into it. I feel strongly that the aboriginal peoples should choose what happens with the remains, whether they are examined or not, but if it were my people I would want to know what happened. Although at this point it might be too painful.


KnotARealGreenDress

They definitely looked into it, they just covered it up. And tons of kids did die from TB (up to 1/4 of kids in the schools), because the schools didn’t have appropriate ventilation (plus stress, forced labour, and malnutrition really do a number on a child’s immune system). [This article](https://www.cmaj.ca/content/192/9/E223) about Dr. Bryce provides some information.


STONEDnHAPPY

As a Canadian I was taught about our abuse towards the Aboriginal in the founding of Canada we had a huge section on residential schools talking about how many disappeared and never made it home so for me them finding the bodies as disturbing as it is is more of a confirmation of the deaths then new knowledge from my perspective


Heat519

If I’m right it’s a little bit higher then that


RezDubSet

I saw the count up to 1800 today 7/2


spinbutton

1800...oh my god. Words can't describe how terrible this is.


Oo__II__oO

1800, *so far.*


FallenInHoops

And only between (I think) five schools. *Five*. Of *over a hundred*. Edit to add: Because I didn't know I looked it up. There were 139 of these institutions across Canada.


Tanglrfoot

I grew up in a small town in Manitoba and racism toward native people was extremely prevalent and I couldn’t why . My dad worked construction with a couple native guys who were his friends and our families regularly got together and my moms best friend was a teacher who happened to be native . All these people experienced residential schools but never talked about it . So by the time I was in grade 7 or 8 it was really bothering me why so many indigenous people were so dysfunctional , it just didn’t make any sense to me until years later when I started learning about the atrocities that were perpetrated at the residential schools generation after generation after generation and the psychological damage that it caused compounded by systemic racism it became very clear - how can you abuse generations of people and segregate them and not expect them to become dysfunctional , to me it’s more amazing that any indigenous people were able to rise above it .


swinging-in-the-rain

> how can you abuse generations of people and segregate them and not expect them to become dysfunctional The goal was never to have them assimilate.


TheFlyingPengiun

And then some white people have the nerve to call them dysfunctional or alcoholics - you would be too if you were in their shoes.


OriginalAndOnly

An ex friend of mine said that to me. How he just hates natives and doesn't care that I don't like it. I asked him about the kids whose schoolmates died and ended up in the ground, and the friend knew about it. He doesn't care about those people. I can't care about him anymore either.


UnanimouslyAnonymous

It's important to add that this didn't happen hundreds of years ago. The last schools closed in 1996 and the survivors (thousands more) were abused, never taught any skills to adapt into society, and weren't taught anything about their own culture. They are a people caught between worlds and it's terribly upsetting. Edit: It has been brought to my attention that the church was not in operation of these schools as late as 1996. I haven't found a credible source as to when they relinquished control of all schools, but my main point was that this is *not* our distant past and should not be treated as though this is an archaic issue.


Dreadedvegas

It should also be noted that the Catholic church did literally the exact same thing in Ireland which is estimated to have killed tens of thousands of single mothers, babies, and orphans. Internationally every Church run institution should be searched for mass graves.


clxr656565

Catholic church ALSO did this to unwed pregnant women in many countries around the world. Often these women were never heard from and /or their children mysteriously disappeared and were sold for adoption unbeknownst to the mother. The atrocities of the Catholic church go way beyond sexually preying on young boys


Dreadedvegas

Tre Catholic Church also essentially turned those unwed women into indentured servants that weren’t getting paid. Look up Hasbro and Ireland’s Magdalene Laundries. If you played a Hasbro board game in the early 2000s it was probably assembled by slave labor administered by the Catholic Church


Backrow6

Don't forget the women and babies were also used as unlicensed test subject for vaccine trials by Glaxo and Wellcome (now GSK). https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/gsk-urged-to-consider-reparations-over-vaccine-trials-at-mother-and-baby-homes-1.4516253


rozling

This is spinechilling, but thank you for linking this.


UtopianLibrary

This happened in the US, too.


Man_with_the_Fedora

> indentured servants that weren’t getting paid. Slaves. That's the word you're looking for.


pygmypuffonacid

Isn't there a movie on Netflix about this happening in Ireland called Filomena or something


d_ac

Philomena, with Judi Dench.


gracem5

worth watching both for content and her remarkable performance


FingersMartinez

And Steve Coogan


Cometarmagon

We can add the 'burning times' too that list of atrocities.


Lucid-Design

Religion: Preaching acceptance while we quietly murder humans we deem “less than”


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Karmakazee

US Catholic dioceses received 1.3 billion in PPP loans from a republican administration. Then a bit more than a year later, the same bishops who got a fuck-ton of forgivable loans (i.e. free cash) from the republicans lay the groundwork to excommunicate the newly elected democratic President for not being pro-life enough. I’d be shocked if these two events were unrelated. The church is just as corrupt as it ever was. Time to tax them.


Lucid-Design

Because they were helping all those people that could’t help themselves. /s Even tho they make bank on money from tithes/donations with little to no tax


WHYAREWEALLCAPS

I mean it isn't like they don't have assloads of precious metals laying around all the time. If we expect poor people to sell their belongings to get by, shouldn't we expect the same from religious institutions?


Lopsided_Service5824

It was done because their culture was seen as savage, so cultured white men felt the need to cure that. Can we not make cover for the racists that all exist in society? A Muslim family got hit by a car in Canada a month ago and a mother, father, grandparents, and sister died. Only one 9 year old boy survived. This race based extremism is still going on and if you're unaware you're very lucky


vanailwood

And taxed fairly.


NoMatatas

I would like to add to the ‘weren’t taught anything about their own culture’ by going further to say it was an intentional and systematic attempt to erase the culture and it is accurate to say it was intentional cultural genocide.


Rat-daddy-

So what’s that got to do with Queen victoria?


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ak617

Thank you! I have been looking for the connection throughout these comments!


hudohudo

Wow. That is just horrible. I don't even really know what to say... That's the darkest thing imaginable. I don't know what you do to work to repair that damage, that's genocide. Awful.


_ser_kay_

It’s important to note that the damage extends far beyond just (if you can say “just” about such a thing) the deaths, too. The generational trauma is huge—there’s a whole generation of people who not only had their culture violently suppressed, but grew up abused and without positive adult role models. And now those people are adults with kids of their own, so the cycle is being continued in a lot of cases. It’s bad. Really bad.


wpgbrownie

Here is a residential school survivor detailing his experiences (warning graphic details): https://globalnews.ca/video/7978660/a-pedophile-playground-survivor-details-experiences-attending-marieval-indian-residential-school-in-saskatchewan/ This was some very very dark things that happened at those schools.


skipperseven

But why Queen Victoria?


NobleLeader65

Judging by the red hands, it's part of a continued protest about all the bodies of children found in mass graves at Canadian schools where indigenous people were sent. EDIT: Not mass graves, unmarked graves. My bad.


Glacial_Blue_Horizon

Just to clarify, I believe they were unmarked graves as opposed to mass graves. "Mass graves" would seem to imply one large grave with multiple bodies as opposed to unmarked graves indicating a less rapid loss of life, but continued over many years.


dirty_hooker

Canada forced indigenous children into catholic run boarding schools. The kids were abused, raped, and had their culture stripped from them. Many thousands died.


P_B_n_Jealous

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57592243


swagpanther

That stereotype is just as out of date as any of them. We have plenty of racist assholes up here.


chillingtransistor

people need to stop with these silly stereotypes. it's canadians that committed the atrocities in the first place


Obiwan-thehighground

More than likely it’s to do with the thousands of dead children’s unmarked graves at old residential schools across Canada.


rockodss

We got Sherlock Holmes over here.


lazymutant256

Yea but whst did it have to do with the queen?


Eric1491625

She was the national leader at a time Canada was not fully independent, so that's where the anger is directed to. Like the statues of Stalin that were torn down in Budapest.


a_thicc_chair

She was also the head of the Anglican faith which had a part in the residential schools


CigarLover

These churches were part of the church of England? I’m confused… I saw that people are calling for the Pope (leader of the Catholic Church) to apologize. Yet queen victoria would have been the leader of the Church of England. I guess what I’m asking is who was in charge at the time? The Catholic Church or the Church of England?


Nexlon

It's both. A lot of these residential schools were headed directly by the Catholic church but a fair amount of them were overseen by either Anglicans or directly by the Canadian government.


Regular-Human-347329

She also represents the colonialists, who committed the genocide of the indigenous population.


entourageffect

The Queen was the leader of Canada at the time, it happened under her watch.


progeda

I can assure you she wasn't watching


softwhiteclouds

That's the perception. But the schools were open until very recently, the last one closed in 1996. Arguably, many successive governments and Sovereigns oversaw these schools since they started, until 1996.


BostonBrandToots

The remaining schools in the '90s were run by local First Nations themselves because why let a good school go to waste?


27thStreet

So your point is that all those other leaders should *also* be punished?


ProgressiveOverlord

Representation of colonial rule and oppression. Not necessarily her “fault,” but what her statue represents.


LouiC03

My best friend growing up lived with his grandparents. They were residential school survivors. I remember when they were awarded $10,000 each as compensation, but they died years later without seeing a penny of it because of legal delays. This would have been in the early 90s, literally 30 years ago. It baffles me that this is just becoming a topic people are paying attention to only now.


gursi_

We learned about this shit in our school textbooks, native children not coming home to their parents after being sent off to school... Just imagine that as a parent. Forcibly sending off your children to be indoctrinated into a different religion and then some of those children not ever returning. Canada has had the receipts for a long time, we just didn't do anything when it mattered and now that there is cold hard evidence we've got no way of giving those children and their families any sort of retribution. The people in power just got the fuck away with it..


smallfatmighty

Even more horrifying - these schools operated for multiple generations. Imagine surviving the horrors of residential school yourself and having your child forcibly taken as well... not knowing if they'll return or what they'll endure there.


Loose_neutral

Death rates in the schools ranged from 50% in the early years to a final average of somewhere between "WW1 Soldier" (1 in 26) and "POW in a Nazi Prison Camp" (1 in 50). Kids in these schools died at a 5x greater rate than other Canadian kids. > Abuse at the schools was widespread: emotional and psychological abuse was constant, physical abuse was meted out as punishment, and sexual abuse was also common. Survivors recall being beaten and strapped; some students were shackled to their beds; **some had needles shoved in their tongues for speaking their native languages**. These abuses, along with overcrowding, poor sanitation, and severely inadequate food and health care, resulted in a shockingly high death toll. In 1907, government medical inspector P.H. Bryce reported that **24 percent of previously healthy Aboriginal children across Canada were dying in residential schools.** This figure does not include children who died at home, where they were frequently sent when critically ill. Bryce reported that anywhere from 47 percent (on the Peigan Reserve in Alberta) to 75 percent (from File Hills Boarding School in Saskatchewan) of students discharged from residential schools died shortly after returning home. > > In addition to unhealthy conditions and corporal punishment, children were frequently assaulted, raped, or threatened by staff or other students. During the 2005 sentencing of Arthur Plint, a dorm supervisor at the Port Alberni Indian Residential School convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Douglas Hogarth called Plint a “sexual terrorist.” Hogarth stated, “As far as the victims were concerned, the Indian residential school system was nothing more than **institutionalized pedophilia.**” [Source](http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/the_residential_school_system_2009/)


Alternate_Ending1984

Just reading that made me want to break something. As long as they say "sorry" if they get caught burning it all to the ground they have to be forgiven, it's the same rules the schools/church played by.


gursi_

This is haunting.


BornShippy

Scum


HipoBro

That's the scary thing, atleast here in Alberta, our idiot primere wanted to abolish the whole topic regarding this. When in reality the courses barely scratched the surface.


qwertash1

Someone already had a plan those dont come down easy


Riv3rBong

It's not that difficult: [How to topple a statue](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32870657/remove-statue-science/)


Morbo28

Woah that's quite detailed


an_internet_denizen

They’re engineers and scientists so it makes sense they would go into that level of detail


Tashre

"I'm no anarchist, buuuuut if you have a physics problem, here's the most efficient way to solve it."


CGNYC

They clearly didn’t use any of the methods in that article


anon72c

Who needs 30 people when you have a truck and a hitch?


Riv3rBong

Just saying, where there's a will - there's a way.


ItsJessicaNow

Idk man everytime a regimen falls the people are pretty quick to topple statues minutes later.


CairaJane0414

You know shits getting real bad when the Canadians start rioting.


funnyjake2020

Why do I see calamity Ganon


CannonK2

Trying my damnedest to see this?


cockalorum-smith

The orb is the “eye”. The cape or robe in back of her is one of the tusks. It’s a stretch but If you really twist your head and close one eye...and sit upside down, you can see it.


IncreaseCompetitive

Canadians about to pull the master sword out on trudeau.


Seriousfilms

Basic info about residential schools for those that don't know. Kids were getting whisked away from their families and killed through the negligence, and often times genuine abuse of church members as recently as 1996 when the last one closed in Saskatchewan. Nearly every indigenous person in Canada is a first, second or third generation residential school survivor. There are, absolutely for sure, thousands if not tens of thousands more children unaccounted for. This was a cultural genocide that lasted longer than a century, and it was much, much worse than even the average Canadian knows. The reason you haven't heard about it, as well as the reason people are freaking out about these bodies being found, is because of our government sweeping this stuff under the rug. Silencing native voices and helping the older less sensitive people, who may have preexisting prejudices, to forget it ever happened. Lots of performative actions have been taken by Canada under the pretense of reconciliation, but they've done essentially jack shit. Anyone that isn't paying attention to how terribly they treat indigenous people believe the government has been helping, when in reality, things are very different. You know most reservations in my province (I'm actually from Manitoba) don't have clean drinking water? It's a travesty. These people deserved and continue to deserve better.


mapleLeafGold

The victims had to bury other victims. Imagine your children’s daily activities at school involves burying his friends. That’s another level of fucked-up. Source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-this-canada-day-marks-a-turning-point-for-the-country/


qroga

As a Mexican, I am a tiny bit surprised that other countries in the American continent just found out that their native people were being eradicated by the invading country. I mean, that’s what all European countries did. Britain was not different. Native children in what is today Mexico did not disappear overnight. I can assure you that they were either killed or died enslaved and/or ignored in extreme poverty. Sadly, many still live ignored by our governments, just like many natives in many other countries. Even europeans.


Imthecoolestdudeever

This wasn't just found out though. Canada and it's Native Americans have known about this for a long time. The Canadian Government has even issued official apologies, and started reconciliation. It's the Churches that are dragging feet and not wanting the truth to come out. Many of these schools were run by them.


brookdacook

70% of residantial schools were run by the catholic church


quefaitla

>As a Mexican, I am a tiny bit surprised that other countries in the American continent just found out that their native people were being eradicated by the invading country. We always knew, but it was facts and history. But locating and exhuming the bodies was much more emotional, everyone here is "in shock" (I mean, even people I know who have shown bias against native people are furious against the church and the state right now). People always show greater empathy when they can actually see the damage and the suffering.


CA-BO

It's not that they're just now finding out; it's that, for a long time, these massive institutions have been muddying the waters of responsibility. People have known it happened. It's just that communicating that and convincing people of how serious or real it was/is is very difficult when the very institutions you're accusing have the power to convince others to look the other way or think "things are better now so why is it a problem?" It's the same as a massive corporation being caught saying/doing something and then coming out with a public statement saying "this does not represent us or our ideals" when it's a legitimate spokesperson or member of that company being problematic in the first place. It's very easy for these institutions to rid themselves of responsibility when people take their "sympathetic" responses to the condemnable act at face value without challenging the fact that they're just saying it because they got caught, not because they care.


smellysurfwax

Dude I was in Puebla,Mexico for a bit and learned that the worlds largest pyramid is there. Know why not many people know about it and it hasn’t been entirely unearthed? Because a big ridiculous church was built right on top. What does the plaque at the bottom say? That back in the day the Spanish invited all the local indigenous leaders to a grand meeting then surrounded and slaughtered them all. Then went out to the surrounding areas and killed and enslaved their women and children. And there’s dozens of churches built all around it ringing bells all day. Sheesh


RelativeFox1

Every child matters. Except for the ones dying now in slums and jungles around the world.


M3mple

Im not quite catching up with what is going on, could someone explain it for me?


JFeth

The Catholic church was in charge of civilizing indigenous children. Lots of them died or went missing. [They recently found a mass gravesite at one of the schools.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57592243) It was sanctioned by the government which included Queen Victoria at the time it was started.


albimoo

“civilizing” is a very poor term i think


PopInACup

It's the term that was used at the time and I think that when reporting it now, emphasizing the purpose of the school is important. These schools weren't meant to teach the kids. They were meant to strip the heritage and culture from the children. Culture and heritage that was viewed as 'barbaric' and 'savage', below that of the civilized English way.


buttgers

Ironic. Natives are considered savage, meanwhile you have these "civilized" elitists committing genocide and putting human lives in horrid conditions.


Itsoc

exactly! thise schools were no much different from reeducation camps for huigurs we find today in china. if we have racism today, imagine 150+ years ago...


I_ate_a_milkshake

yeah, but they did it in a suit and tie, like gentlemen.


Asleep_Reflection197

"This is not a mass grave site. These are unmarked graves," said Cowessess Chief Cadmus Delorme.


barbarkbarkov

The goal of residential schools was the cultural genocide of indigenous people. Canada wanted to settle the West and use the West as farmland to supply Ontario with food and resources. Those pesky indigenous folk were In the way so the government of Canada created the residential school system to literally “kill the Indian in the child”. Get them young, remove all aspects of Indigenous culture so that they were no longer “a burden” for Canada. Keep in mind Eugenics was quite a popular belief at the time. And Sir John A. Macdonald was as racist as they come.


JMThiphop

Serious question, as someone who has really bad internet service where I am (job site, but Reddit works somehow just as text) I've been out of the loop on this issue. My coworker tried telling me that these graves could be from diseases back then and things like that. What is the cause of death? Were they murdered or could this be from illnesses and they had too many bodies to dig seperate graves so did mass graves? Sorry for not being able to dive more into this topic, so could somebody please explain what exactly is going on? Thanks!


OSCgal

My understanding is that while many of these deaths were from disease, it was disease exacerbated by living in close quarters with bad hygiene, bad food, and little medical care. It was abuse through neglect. Furthermore, when these children died, a lot of times their families weren't notified. These children just never came home.


123G0

The irony.... Queen Victoria is widely celebrated in former colonies bc she's the Queen that actively dismantled the Crown's power and sought to turn the Crown into a figure head. Her overall goal was to remove power from the Crown and aristocracy and place it into common rule. She wanted people in the UK and in colonies to be able to vote and have power of self determination. That's why her statues are commonly found in front if legislative buildings in former colonies, even in places where colonialism was overthrown via uprisings, her statues tended to remain untouched bc of her popularity. She was greatly maternalized in the colonies, and many languages had nicknames for her that went with that. In Canada, her nickname was "the Great White Mother". During her reign, she was smeered by the aristocracy bc of her goals. She was depicted as a hysterical, unattractive baren shrew. Her miscarriages, weight and post partum depression were weaponized against her. It was only after her death that her daughters published over 100 of her journals showing how politically active she was. She felt that her family's legacy was mired in "immorality" and sought to correct what she felt were moral failings. Colonial rule and abuse of power being one of them. Her greatest misstep was her mismanagement of resources during world famine. She redirected food from India to other companies facing famine and greatly exasperated India's famine to deadly levels. Yet, even India kept many of it's statues of Queen Victoria. I get the anger against symbols of the colonialism in Canada, but attacking ones of Queen Victoria is pretty illogical if that's the goal. She's literally been turned into a symbol because she herself sought to dismantle her family's legacy of colonialism and limit the Crown's power to being simply consulted. She was not a catholic Queen and she had nothing to do with residential school systems.


millionreddit617

This is an important point. Interestingly it was only when Canada took control of its own self-governance in 1867 that these policies became widespread. The ‘Indian Act’ was passed into law in Canada in 1876. So it took 9 years of self governance for the Canadian government to industrialise this abuse. And yet, everyone blames the British and the Monarchy. Ironic indeed.


LaserAntlers

Facts don't matter when people are looking for retribution


txddavis

American here I know about the Catholic Church deal but how does the queen tie in?


merchillio

The churches ran the school, the government of Canada rounded up the children, forcefully ripped them from their families and did nothing to stop the abuse they were absolutely aware of.


gacdeuce

The Canadian government is at least as much to blame as the Catholic Church in this. The schools were authorized by the government back when Queen Victoria was in charge and Canada still answered to her. The schools continued to be operated by the Canadian government as recently as when Trudeau’s father was PM and the Catholic Church was no longer really in the picture. Although the Church still has much to reconcile, the Canadian government is also pretty significantly scapegoating the Catholic Church to shift blame away from themselves.


iceman1935

Not really the British monarchy at the time didn't have much power over Britain at the time let alone Canada, if your going not blame someone in Britain then do it to who ever the priminsiter was at the time


DomitianF

Glad to see that hatred towards the monarchy has not gone out of style!


Capt_Killer

Geniune question. What does Queen Victoria have to do with any of this?


Fearsomeman3

The land and money these churches made in the whole amount of time they got away with it should be given to all first nation communities as reparations for the genocide


Storm-Kerr

Catholics will have a difficult time recruiting members after child sexual assault allegations and now genocide against native people. I’m starting to think that maybe it wasn’t god who created the church, but the other guy…


SleevesMcDichael

Meanwhile in florida a school for boys has a mass grave that keeps getting larger the more they excavate, and all we did was say "wow, thats crazy" Edit: For context, so it doesn't come offlike I'm joking about serious current events - I'm referencing the "Dozier School For Boys" in Marianna, Florida. The place operated until 2011 and was a correctional facility for youth, and is the cite of countless atrocities towards the youth of Bay County, FL from 1900 to its closing year in 2011. [Heres more to read up on, embarrising and shocking how long this 'school' operated with state funding. (content warning)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_School_for_Boys)