T O P

Dawn Butler praised for 'strength and resilience' after saying Boris Johnson lies

Dawn Butler praised for 'strength and resilience' after saying Boris Johnson lies

  • By - qpl23

Danqazmlp0

Glad she stuck to her guns and didn't withdraw her comment.


Nuclear_Geek

She couldn't withdraw her comment. It's also against the rules for MPs to mislead the House - and saying "Boris Johnson is not a liar" would definitely be misleading the House.


chrisrazor

She should've taken a leaf out of Denis Skinner's book and gone with "Half the time when the PM opens his mouth he tells a lie".


PM_ME_CAKE

It was the last session before Parliament adjourned for summer, she *literally* had nothing to lose.


jimmycarr1

I don't think she ***literally*** had nothing to lose, this will obviously affect her reputation (for better, or potentially for worse). Almost any contrarian action in politics is a gamble.


Tooj_Mudiqkh

She should have - or more specifically, she should never have said it that way to start with. There are *way* smarter ways to point out what she did that is within protocol and this was just clickbait for dumbasses on her part.


distantapplause

Any of them get this kind of publicity?


Tooj_Mudiqkh

Exactly. It doesn't make her an any more intelligent or better politician.


The_Modifier

The correct answer to that was "no". This is the first one that's gotten this kind of publicity. And speaking up so visibly is important, especially for a member of the opposition!


Tooj_Mudiqkh

For the plebs, perhaps... (as we obviously see) ...but it's singing to the choir, i.e. pure self-promotion. It does just highlight her lack of deeper skills as a politician though


ost2life

Plainly stating a series of facts in parliament is undesirable quality after all...


KesselRunIn14

Whoosh?


mysilvermachine

Given that he has been sacked from government, and from a journalists job for lying, you wouldn’t think that saying it out loud would be an issue.


kinggimped

Two journalist jobs. Both the Times and the Telegraph sacked him for publishing made up shit. The Times fired him for completely fabricating a quote from his godfather, a famous historian. And then the Telegraph - EVEN THE TELEGRAPH - fired him for spreading a bunch of "Euromyths" in his column, things like how the EU plans to force everyone to be buried in the same "Eurocoffin" or how they were establishing a "banana police force" to measure the curves of bananas. He also went on in 1999 to get a job as editor of the Spectator by promising the magazine's owner that he would not pursue a career in politics. 2 years later he stood for Tory MP. Then he later published an article saying the [Hillsborough disaster](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster) was caused by drunken football fans, and accused the people of Liverpool of wallowing in the misery of that tragedy. The British PM is a pathological liar. He lies to get what he wants. That's not news. The fact that this is no longer news causes people to just accept it, and just lets him continue to lie with impunity.


Pepsimaxbeatspepsi

> Then he later published an article saying the Hillsborough disaster was caused by drunken football fans, and accused the people of Liverpool of wallowing in the misery of that tragedy. Life's interesting as a United fan running into supposed Liverpool fans who worship him.


DavidWantsHisBooze

There was Guppygate too. Massive 'elephant trap' apparently.


M3ptt

I think the issue for many conservatives is that even though they, probably, know that Boris is lying, having to hear it out loud us much harder to stomach because it implies that the PM is capable of lying. This is especially problematic for them as they have tenuous support from rebel backbenchers and if they (front bench) are shown to even waiver slightly from the PM then it could expose them to greater issues in terms of keeping other, less agreeable, conservatives inline. Most of us know what will likely become of Boris's legacy but that won't stop some tories from suckling at the teat of Johnson's administration.


BenAird

It's the nonsensical archaic false civility of the House of Commons. Lying is okay, but implying someone else is lying is beyond the pale because its impolite.


Burnleh

Actually implying it is fine, they do it all the time. It's just that you can't say it outright for one reason or another.


InternationalTax5447

It's so there can be no culpability or personal responsibility I guess, ultimately, no matter whatever technical reason is given. Seems to me it's tied up with with the legal immunity granted by 'parliamentary privilege' because if another mp can say it's a lie, it may call the legal immunity into question. Cunts.


danihendrix

A comment I read the other day gave a quote along the lines of "if politicians could call each other liars, they'd do nothing else til the end of time"


pr2thej

This makes the most sense, unfortunately


AidyCakes

It really says a lot about the state of our government when 'strength and resilience' are qualities that are needed in order to call out the obvious bullshit that the PM is allowed to get away with.


dwair

Yeah, that's my take on it. It's quite depressing all round really


Dyldor

I was going to say the exact same thing, I don’t at all disagree that she did show strength and resilience, it’s just fucking sad that simply pointing out such a basic truth makes a politician strong and resilient in 21st century Westminster. And the whole fact she’s not allowed to do so?!?


Dear-Criticism-447

I wonder what would happen if she refused to leave the house.


Orngog

That would be a job for the [Doorkeepers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doorkeeper_(Houses_of_Parliament\))


Dear-Criticism-447

Thanks - interesting.


crazyal_

Bring out the sword.


irishreally

I’ve said it before: one MP a day needs to say this when the house is sitting - just one - every day!


ZakalweTheForgetful

This is exactly my thought. How many MPs have the guts to do this?


Affectionate_Ad_3722

just the one.


hyperstarter

They'd do it when there's enough of them protesting for sure. Doesn't Keith call the PM a liar most days?


jimmycarr1

You're allowed to counter arguments and give facts but you're not allowed to slander the person by calling them a liar. So Kier can say "The prime minister said this money went to X when actually it went to Y" but he can't say "The prime minister is a liar because he lied about this thing". Which is a bit silly but that's what the rule is.


hyperstarter

But I'm confused as Parliamentary Privilege is the exact opposite: >In the United Kingdom, it allows members of the House of Lords and House of Commons to speak freely during ordinary parliamentary proceedings without fear of legal action on the grounds of slander, contempt of court or breaching the Official Secrets Act. > >It also means that members of Parliament cannot be arrested on civil matters for statements made or acts undertaken as an MP within the grounds of the Palace of Westminster, on the condition that such statements or acts occur as part of a proceeding in Parliament—for example, as a question to the Prime Minister in the House of Commons.


qpl23

If you're in a Situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the House of Commons, just walk in and say "Speaker, the Prime Minister is a liar." And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think she's really rude and throw her out. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both seeking publicity and they'll throw them both out. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in to the house of commons, singing a bar of *Boris is a Liar* and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of *Boris Lies* and walking out. And friends they may think it's a movement. (with apologies to [Arlo Guthrie](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPx2t7xoF1k))


mycockstinks

Cheers for putting the credit on there. Got half way through and couldn't place where I remembered it from.


[deleted]

can you imagine what would happen if all labour mps did that at the same time? it'd be beautiful


Ckssr1

The ones that told victims of grooming gangs to shut up for the sake of diversity?


open_debate

This is a genuine question from me. Do you have a link or something of this happening? If someone did say it, they need expelling from the Labour party. It just sounds like it might be one of those things that got either made up outright or massively misrepresented. I suspect some on the far left may say something along those lines, those guys are fucking nuts, but the parliamentary Labour Party are generally a little more moderate.


Ckssr1

My bad she didn't actually say it she retweeted it, which is still bad. However she covered it up by saying it was a mistake and she was a victim of abuse herself. Wonder if any tories would get off so lightly?


runforitmarty85

Got a link to this? Like the person a over asked for.


Ckssr1

https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2017/08/23/mp-shares-tweet-saying-abuse-victims-should-shut-their-mouths-for-good-of-diversity-6872181/amp/


noggadog

This is really weak. Someone accidentally clicks retweet on a comment from a fake right-wing troll account and tory voters are still banging on about it four years later, do you really think anyone's going to fall for that?


Ckssr1

"Accidently" hmmm


open_debate

>Wonder if any tories would get off so lightly? I think the answer is clearly yes, but only within their own party.


Lucretia9

Go see what Phil had to say today about this, a different bias on yt.


PorkAmbassador

The guy really needs to smarten up and fix his studio lighting, he looks grey and ill.


nicotineapache

Glad it's not just me. Could perhaps allow himself a little vanity in his role.


c3n7uri0n

Who is Phil?


Philsredditaccount1

Me! :) Possibly not the same Phil though


nicotineapache

[A Different Bias](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj1_pZ7vmxnhy5clIcMVJtg) \- youtube channel.


Lucretia9

I literally told you above.


amazondrone

In the most ambiguous way possible. If you'd used capital letters it would have been a lot clearer you were naming a channel instead of telling us that some guy Phil, who's on YouTube, has a different kind of bias to other people.


Lucretia9

Ah you must be thick to not grasp the use of a comma and the well known initials yt to mean YouTube, ffs.


amazondrone

Must be. (By the way, I got the yt bit. As I said, it was the channel name which passed me by and, judging by the reaction, a bunch of other people too.) What a weird fucking hill to make a stand on. Look, I'm just telling you what happened. If you want to be a immature dick about it, pick a totally unnecessary fight and refuse to accept that your comment was unclear (as pointed out by at least three people), it's no skin off my nose.


c3n7uri0n

Ah lol, I misread, I thought you were saying someone called Phil had made a YouTube video with a different bias, I didn't realise that it was the name of the channel, my bad!


JimmyThunderPenis

It's not your bad, it's his. As another user pointed out there was no indication that was the name of the channel whatsoever.


Kaiserlongbone

Totally agree. The guy tasks so much sense but he literally looks like he's about to keel over.


open_debate

I like him, and not really paid attention to it before now. Now I'm going to have to stop watching his videos. Maybe he does them in audio?


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TheChugnut

Excellent. Well then, Boris is excused...


FractalChinchilla

AlL SiDeS aRe ThE sAmE


Ckssr1

Did he say that? He said they all lie, which they do


FractalChinchilla

Context mate.


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FractalChinchilla

The hive mind has consumed me. And i will come for you too. Mark ^my ^^words, ^^^mark ^^^^my ^^^^^woooords


qpl23

Thanks for your impassioned defence of the status quo, and your commitment to making sure our shitbag PM can continue wallowing in the subservient acquiescence of us all while he pollutes the infosphere with his fecal verbiage.


i_hope_youre_ok

No OnE iS PeRfEcT sO aLl ScUmBaG, lIeInG PiEcE Of ShIt CuNts ArE fINe!


newsspotter

**Petition** on the website of the UK Parliament: Make lying in the House of Commons a criminal offence https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/576886 PS: Link was submitted to this subreddit yesterday.


GiantFartMonster

Signed


Naive_Gap_7081

Signed...


CleaningTheRug

Turkeys voting for Christmas? Good luck with that


lunarpx

Who defines what lying is? I feel like this is definitely dangerous as an idea, there are huge advantages to our current t system of parliamentary privilege.


Zebidee

Exactly this. Part of the idea of open discussion of solving problems from differing approaches is the right to be wrong. This would mean that every statement in parliament would be taken as if it were given under oath rather than a discussion of ideas in good faith. Be as cynical as you like about the machinations of modern parliament, but the basic premise of the parliamentary system is the idea that problems can be openly discussed within a group before the group votes on the best course of action.


chrisrazor

You can state an untrue thing without lying. With this in place, you'd have to be able to prove you truly believed it (eg show a report that supported that belief), or if you're unsure of a thing say that you're unsure. That actually gets us closer to honest communication.


Zebidee

Misleading of Parliament as a charge already exists, and was in fact used earlier this year against Johnson.


jep51

Well how would you define lying when it comes to perjury? Seems reasonable to use the same bar.


Count_Craicula

Punishment for telling the truth about a liar. Says it all.


[deleted]

I've not been a fan of many things she's said but she was absolutely right here and well done to her for having the courage to say it


Select_Biscotti_5781

She said all the right things before knowing full well this would circulate around


BeefcakeUK

I’m far from Labour supporter, but one thing I do not understand is why was the lady told off and sanctioned? Is there a specific rule in commons that prohibits statements that incumbent PM is a liar? What about the freedom of speech? How come all media outlets are allowed to say “X is a liar” or “PM is a liar” or whatnot, but the MP who represents actual people cannot express such view?


SalmonMan123

The rules of the commons are very particular. While I agree with what she said, she still violated the rules of the house (and yes, bit of hypocrisy as so has Boris). Heres a snippet I found which explains it better than I could. > THE PARLIAMENTARY factsheets issued by the House of Commons describe unparliamentary language with some humour. Language and expressions used in the Chamber must conform with a number of rules. Erskine May (the "bible" of parliamentary procedure) states that "good temper and moderation are the characteristics of parliamentary language". Objection has been taken both to individual words and to sentences and constructions - in the case of the former, to insulting, coarse, or abusive language; and of the latter, to imputation of false motives, charges of lying or being drunk, and misrepresentation of the words of another. Among words to which objection has been taken by Speakers have been, blackguard, coward, git, guttersnipe, hooligan, rat, swine, stoolpigeon and traitor. The Speaker will direct a Member who has used an unparliamentary word or phrase to withdraw it. Members sometimes use considerable ingenuity to circumvent these rules (as when, for instance, Winston Churchill substituted "terminological inexactitude" for "lie") but they must be careful to obey the Speaker's directions, or being required to withdraw from the Chamber or naming may follow a refusal to retract an offending expression. Essentially, this is why MPs always sound so stiff in the commons. They need to be very careful on how to word things.


BeefcakeUK

Thank you! I absolutely love the “stoolpigeon” though.


catman_dave

hachachachaa


CarlosDeeGee

The system is broken.


draw_it_now

The system is working exactly as intended


jimmycarr1

You already got great answers on why it's that way, but the reason why it's that way is because it protects politicians from consequences.


Dark-Peak

No, it's to stop parliament descending into a shitshow. If MPs could call eachother liars, that's all they'd ever do.


jimmycarr1

Not if there were consequences for lying. Because then either the liar faces consequences or the false accuser does.


a_royale_with_cheese

Protecting the liars is what makes it a shitshow.


Dark-Peak

Protecting liars is what brings parliament into disrepute. A shitshow is what would happen if you call open season on direct accusations during parliamentary debate. Neither is desirable. Of course Boris should be held to account, but there's a time and a place, as Butler well knows.


a_royale_with_cheese

No one is going to hold Johnson accountable, so where is the time and place? Butler was entirely factual. If the Speaker did his job, Butler would not need to call Johnson out. Ultimately what’s happening is that Johnson is trying our constitutional conventions, and they are being found sorely lacking.


st0mpeh

> The convention of not questioning the integrity of other MPs is based on the assumption they will act honourably. He has acted dishonourably time and time again yet we cant call it out because we have to assume they will act honourably? Isnt that a paradox? A paradox Mr Jonhnson is milking while he milks the public purse repeatedly. At what point does the house come to the conclusion he had not and will not act honourably. The house is basically protecting him from being called out on his raft of mistruths so he can continue with lie after lie, why is this not a point of order?


YesAmAThrowaway

I can't imagine how the sentient ham stammers superficially through his audiences with the Queen. She has to sit there and listen to his garbage week after week and all she can do is "offer criticism."


cup_of_rosie_lee

Sentient ham!


YesAmAThrowaway

His new easing of the lockdown measures is basically a policy of Total Fucking Dead People and Bullshit


highlandhound

The saddest thing is he was elected to lie. His followers don’t want to be told the truth - they would rather imagine it is not the vile people they vote for that are responsible for their woes but the EU, the young, the ethnic minorities, people fleeing warzones etc etc etc


Ur_favourite_psycho

People want to turn a blind eye to it because they're too lazy/afraid to do anything about it. And then there's some people who truly believe everything he says!


Ckssr1

Didn't Corbyn want out of the EU too?


Dark-Peak

Love that you're getting downvoted for telling the truth. The state of this sub lol.


Charles_Ye_Hammer

Mate that's this sub all over. It's packed to the rafters with Self-hating, Middle class whites that relentlessy share Guardian links and drone on about how Awful we are as a Nation and how terrible we are as a people.. I love how nobody is mentioning that Dawn Butler had to quit during the expenses scandal when she was accused of making the taxpayer pay for a bloody Jacuzzi & claiming expenses for a 2nd home.


gareewong

Next, she needs to make a motion to debate whether the Prime minister is a liar or not.


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GiantFartMonster

I’m surprised that stooge sir Keith didn’t ask her to apologise to be honest


jonnyphotos

These are the principles that MPs should abide by.. and if not..resign.. Bozo should’ve left a loooong time ago… https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-7-principles-of-public-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2


threalseymourskinner

Why is the story about her being praised and not about Boris lying? You don’t need a particular amount of ‘strength and resilience’ to call a spade a spade. Why gush effervescently with walls of hyperbole about something of only secondary importance? Elsewhere we are decrying the corrosive effect that the Boris J’son personality cult has on his accountability, yet here we have supporters on the left attempting to set up a similar poisonous structure for their own tribe. Give us a fucking break. The news should be about what happens, not what jackshit media pundits think our take should be.


blusky737

The British left need to take a page from America and call out Boris like democrats did with Trump. Trump was call a liar, maniac, narcissist, monster, etc every week by someone big in the Democratic Party. Keir doesn’t say anything and it’s so infuriating.


GhostRiders

Lots of people are saying that it's rich coming Dawn Butler, that she is just as bad etc etc.. Other then voting a total of 7 times not to have an Inquiry into the Iraq War all the way upto 2016 what else has she done that has made people to say that she is a liar, that she is just as bad etc.. If its about when she accused the Metropolitan Police of racial profiling she had a valid point and the Met admitted they made a mistake and apologisedwhne they stopped her car. So again what has she done that has made people accuse her of being just as bad?


InternetCrank

Legislating while black


Alternatingloss

Lol they only get elected on the back of their race grift. What’s so shocking is people like dawn butler are elected and promoted by Labour because of their race, so we end up with an extremely poor politician.


MaleficentBoot8911

True….but not pc to say it


CleaningTheRug

Spending thousands of pounds of taxpayers' cash renovating a house under 15 miles from her main home? Claiming for a Jacuzzi-style bath to be fitted in her North London second home while claiming her main home was in East London? She’s cheated the system (and the taxpayer) same as the rest of them.


GhostRiders

You mean this... "In March 2009, Butler was criticised for claiming the second home allowance, despite her main home in Stratford being the same distance from Parliament as her Brent South home, however her office stressed that she moved into the Wembley house after being elected in 2005 to allow her to serve her constituents. Following a number of errors in 2005–8, which resulted in a £2,600 overcharge, and after discussion with the Parliamentary Fees Office, most of the overcharge was offset against later expenses; with the remainder repaid"


CleaningTheRug

Yeah having to repay it after being caught lol Don’t ask the question if you don’t like the answer.


GhostRiders

You okay mate... I asked a question, you referred to something that happens a decade ago, I said is it this which by the way was no where near as bad as you made out it and then you uttered some random gibberish.


distantapplause

Tbf he has a point. How many of us would be able to 'accidentally' claim an extra £2,600 in expenses and have our employer not even say 'pay it back immediately' but rather 'no worries, just take it out of your *future expenses*'. I reckon most of us would be out on our arses.


GhostRiders

That is fair enough mate but in the grand of scheme of things at the time it didn't even register because it was nothing compared to what some of the other fuckers were claiming. Now back on subject, are we saying because she fiddled her expenses to the tune of a couple grand over 10 years ago she can't call Boris a Liar.. Really?


Dark-Peak

People in glass houses...


CleaningTheRug

Your bias is showing pal


GhostRiders

My bias... Fucking hell mate lol... Your the one saying because she got caught out for a couple of grand, which by way at the time didn't even register considering the shit storm that was being caused with MP's expenses running into the tens of thousands of pounds, over 10 years later she caught call Boris a Liar.. And your saying my Bias is showing lol.... Black Female MP can't say Boris is a liar because she fucked her expenses over 10 years to the tune of a couple of grand.. That is what you are saying and I'm showing my bias lol.. Okay mate


acidus1

The queen hired lawyers to discuss dismissing him as pm given he lied to parliment and the Queen over the reason for the shutdown in 2019


CleaningTheRug

The same Dawn Butler who filmed herself being pulled over by police claiming it was racist when in fact she was a passenger and not driving the car. She had no strength and resilience then putting police officers careers in jeopardy with such acquisitions. Same Dawn Butler who spent thousands of pounds of taxpayers' cash renovating a house under 15 miles from her main home, claimed for a Jacuzzi-style bath to be fitted in her North London second home while claiming her main home was in East London. They’re all as bad as each other.


cridder5

Came here to say this, now I don’t need to… she’s not fit for office after that debacle


javajuicejoe

The shit this government gets away with and they throw her out for that?


litlechicken

Its really telling of the time we live in that a black woman has to call out the privilegeed white male for his lies and is then silenced. A very brave woman did what others didn't despite the possible negative consequences but it shouldn't solely rest on one person surely....?


Ckssr1

You people are OBSESSED with identity politics, why the fuck does her skin colour matter you complete melt?


MaleficentBoot8911

It is all that matters to some….that is why they end up with people like her as their mp


Unimportant_Cod_149

I suspect if she looked like Angela Eagle, many would have gone wild with admiration, with that usual 'she's tells it like it is, y'know!' scream. The more fearful of the western world (like it or not) sees Butler as being 'gobby'.


Ckssr1

Lmao what world do you live in?


Unimportant_Cod_149

Ckssr1; England 2021 - which is trying to be the England of 1981, when we tried to 'shut up' so-called 'chippy' beings. I watched Sir Steve McQueen's 'Uprising' last week - I think of people like you when people like Tyrone Mings and Raheem Sterling also gets the right-wing media heated.


MaleficentBoot8911

Yawn jez…..chippy characters like you? funny you were eager to deny your race….and yet it was always obvious you seem more excited by those boys than anyone I know…..strange obsession you have for someone who has spent fifteen years pretending not be what it was obvious to everyone he was….what are you ashamed of? Your race or your denial?


MaleficentBoot8911

If she did jez I doubt you’d comment….not the sort you are obsessed with still banging on about ‘fearful’ and she is gobby….


MyCodeHatesMe6

What she did was brilliant, even though it'll make fuck all difference, but what exactly does her skin colour or gender have to do with it? Stop making it a race/gender issue when it isn't one.


Doverkeen

Agreed. I think when the situation is not remotely related to race, this kind of view just objectifies people based on their race. Lets just appreciate her as a politician.


chide_tea

I guess sometimes it is interesting and eye opening to consider the intersectionality of someone's position.


Dark-Peak

She's an MP. She's one of the most powerful people in the country.


pickled-egg

I'll just point out that if Labour are looking for the type of person that should be leading them: she's it.


joshhirst28

While not completely related to this she and other people have criticised how Boris Johnson has handled COVID, but I can’t understand why. Almost every country has taken a different approach and with a pandemic it is unpredictable and you can’t predict the future, and so Boris Johnson’s choices have just happened to be wrong but IMO it isn’t really his fault


excelssior

He's consistently ignored scientific advice (e.g. delaying lockdown in March 2020, again delaying lockdown in September/October last year when he refused until he couldn't stop it in November, removing all restrictions right now against scientific advice), U-turned like crazy, and his cabinet have made ridiculously bad decisions over and over again. e.g. the exam results fiasco, forcing schools to open for 1 day in January, not controlling the borders for most of the pandemic and then bringing in strict, changeable, arbitrary travel rules, wasting so so much money on the test and trace system. The current case rate is extremely high and 129K in the UK have died How can it not be their fault?


joshhirst28

For one thing he hasn’t gone against all scientific advise (and also when you have multiple scientific advisers, at some point they will disagree and give conflicting evidence and arguments at which point it is very difficult to decide what is the correct decision). And for another how do you know that Labour wouldn’t do the exact same thing if they were in power. Both Labour and the Tories have made some terrible decisions when they are in power but recency bias is just playing into the equation and people only remember the bad things of the Tories reign in charge.


excelssior

You're right we can't comment on what any other government may have done, but we can criticise what we know the current government have done 🤷


WhyShouldIListen

On Reddit, it's because they're Tories. Off Reddit, people aren't nearly half as critical. This sub is so anti- Tory it's laughable at times. Everything is twisted to become a fuck Tory comment. Just ignore it.


joshhirst28

Personally I think that each party is just as bad as each other, if the situations were reversed Labour would probably be just as bad as the Tories


kirky1148

I wish she had refused to move. Just for the history book insert that shows the time parliament dragged an MP out for calling a lier, including sacked for lieing in previous roles, out on their bullshit. Sadder part is to me its also a propaganda video for drawing more self interested liers to government as it shows that not only do you get away with it, opponents calling it out get auto sanctioned by the institute.


Lizardmanjj

And most importantly honesty, unfortunately under new laws she humiliated a politician so it’s 14 years of hard labour for her


QuestionsNotAnswers

She made labour look like a party of cynical stunts and student protesters rather than a serious party . Contrast it to how Ian Blackford asked Boris Johnson if he's a liar and the way he carried himself and his party with a little more sophistication. Its the kind of thing labour politicians do to increase their popularity in their own fractured party but not seeing how it makes the labour brand look.


TheNewHobbes

And did anything change after Ian Blackford? If it had been effective then Dawn Butler wouldn't have had to say anything yesterday.


QuestionsNotAnswers

Opposition politicians do not affect the government through their attacks. Opposition politicians are there to present themselves as the alternative government. My point is that Dawn Butler isn't presenting herself as an alternative government and just part of labour's problems. This whole thing plays out as a win for the conservatives because it highlights Labour. Labour seem to have not changed and retained the same elements. I think the serious politicians in Labour know this.


TheNewHobbes

She's presenting herself as an alternative, one that tells the truth in Parliament which everyone knows the Prime Minister doesn't do. A lot of shy Tories say "yes Boris lies and the government is corrupt, but they're all the same, better the devil you know" as an excuse to ignore it all. Now people can say "She's telling the truth, so she's not the same as the government, are you going to vote for her (or by extension her party)?" The shy Tory can either admit they're not actually shy but they're happy with the lying corrupt government or come up with some other reason for voting for them, which are in short supply if you ignore the B and R words.


QuestionsNotAnswers

Thanks for explaining how you see it. It's something to think about. I'm constantly reading on social media like reddit how shocked people feel that the latest viral 'gotcha' or attack from the labour party has had no impact or an opposite efffect [conservative +2] etc. This seems like another one of those. The kind of enthuiasm I see for Darn Butler antics from certain sections makes it seem more about a future labour leadership challenge looking for a different style of leader.


Hbarnes2033

LOL the irony of her calling Boris a liar when she has lied in the past before on more than 1 ocassion fuck labor and fuck the tories


neilrocks25

Boris is another level of liar though.


Hbarnes2033

Its ok when labour lie but bad when the torries lie ok chump


neilrocks25

Lol that’s not what I said… chump lol what is the 1950’s.. chump lolololol.


SDLRob

'Strength and resilience' for intentionally breaking a parliament rule?


Sidbob

"Intentionally misleading the house" is also a rule yet Boris breaks that one constantly. Calling it out is the right thing to do.


SDLRob

and there are ways to do that rather than break a rule yourself.... and get to go on Summer recess a few hours early....


Mortensen

You’re either a troll or a Neanderthal how can you not see that following a strange and antiquated rule set up to protect those in power isn’t good for the nation as a whole.


SDLRob

When there's multiple ways Butler could have said the same thing as Butler did, just without that specific word, It's mad that people are getting so up in arms with the fact Butler chose to break the rules intentionally... ​ Butler knew what she was doing by using the word she did... Butler wanted the outrage. You're either a troll of a Neanderthal to think that Butler is a victim of an old strange rule that no one really needs to be pinged for anymore.


Cheezebaws

And if Butler had used one of those other ways as MPs often do we wouldn’t even have heard of it. It did it’s job. The only way I can see someone being against this if they’ve thought it through is that they didn’t like the job it did well - publicly, and with great publicity, called out the PMs lies. I assume you’ve just not thought it through. There’s a reason those ineffective methods are allowed.


SDLRob

Yeah, if she'd used any other term, she wouldn't have gotten the social media hysterical screaming that she's got... and wanted.


Cheezebaws

MP trying to publicise important issue wants publicity. Shocking.


smits017

Unjust rules shouldn't be followed


27th_wonder

Its not unjust, its a perfectly fair baseline to hold MPs to a standard of higher debate instead of bar room insults. You can't call someone a liar in Parliament for same reason mods on reddit remove low effort posts and weak/ argumentative comments. That said she's factually correct but needs to remember the rules of the game she signed up to play and not break the rites of parliamentary debate, lest we see the political correspondents turn into /r/subredditdrama submitters, only talking about the week's biggest squabble, and our MPs sink to a lack of decorum not seen in public since Home Alone 2 actor Donald Trump was last newsworthy.


smits017

Calling out lies where you see them aren't bar room insults for crying out loud. This is why the Tories get away with this stuff.


SDLRob

who judges what's 'unjust' though? The rule is that you cannot use a specific word for another member of parliament... you can use other terms that mean the same thing, just not that one word. ​ Dawn got to go on Summer recess a few hours early... that's all she was doing when she used the word


TastyBurgers14

its people like you that hold society back. you should always question the rules.


SDLRob

wow.... someone's in a bad mood.


TastyBurgers14

ah the classical Bootlick response of patronising someone who has a point and brushing it off. Your make a fantastic tory


SDLRob

what point have you made? you respond to a post with a hyperbolic statement, then get upset when you don't get the response you wanted.


wjb1622

Water is wet, there I said it, can I get praised too


gempthe1stofAlston

Getting praise for critisizing the PM isnt praise worthy