'The final straw': Some Catholic Canadians renounce church as residential school outrage grows
By - mingy
I'm a lapsed Catholic. Let me share my story of my own last straw.
Back when all the Catholic child abuse stories all started to break (late 90s early 00s?), my father was the editor of the religion section for the Dallas morning news.
Pops got a call from some church hierarchy literally telling him that he needed to be a good Catholic and withhold the publications. My father did not prevent the various stories from being published, and he ended up spending the next 15 years or so driving 2+ hours every Sunday in order to go to a church outside the realm of influence of this particular bishop/cardinal/whatever. For me, it was enough...never been back to Catholic church.
Needless to say, the Church coverup is real.
Here in Germany we had a pedophile scandals that came to light last year. The church also covered it up for years.
The result was that so many people wanted to revoke their church membership that you couldn't get appointments for months.
Edit: If you're a member of the Catholic or Protestant Church in Germany you have to pay a Church Tax. The tax is automatically deducted from your income and collected by the state. You need an appointment with the local administration office to cancel your church membership and get rid of the tax.
Here you can find a further explanation about the history of this tax.
Can't you just nail the paper on the front door of your church?
That's destruction of property and is verboten
I'm still German after all
Talking out of turn? That's verboten. Lookin' out the window? That's verboten. Staring at my sandals? That's verboten. Verbrennen the school canoe? Oh, you better believe that's verboten.
So... What's a paddlin?
saying verboten too much!
He said verboten! Stone him!
You're only making it worse for yourself
How could it be worse? Jehovah. Jehovah.
He didn’t say it, he Declared it!
In Catholic School? Everything.
We weren’t allowed to make a peep at all in line in catholic school, so when standing in line we had to cover our lips with our hands in prayer. And being an all girl school, if you whistled at any point you would get a harsh telling off as only boys whistle. And of course being a vocal atheist would get you into trouble with certain more old school teachers.
And there was a nun teaching us at about maybe 8/9 who would hit you over the hand with a ruler for the most stupid stuff. Also, wouldn’t let a kid of that same class use the toilet as she was reading at the front of the class. And then she pissed herself.
This reference never fails.
Then use non-destructive tape and tape it to the door.
Modern problems require modern solutions
Is kissing verboten too?
Well... try me
[Only if you let me use my lips like these guys ;) ](https://youtu.be/sX-kH7KeAwU)
Didn’t a German revolution get quelled by posting “Don’t step on the grass” signs once?
Texas has *Don't tread on me* and we Germans have *Das betreten des Rasens ist verboten*
That's quite verbote...er...verbose.
It's a quote attributed to Stalin
"There will never be a revolution in Germany because you would need to step on the grass"
So it didn't actually happen. Given our performance in 1848... it could have happened
A revolution that doesn’t seize the power over the military was in those days no real revolution.
[Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg on 31 October 1517](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther)
Every child in protestant Europe learns about Luther and his shitpost.
And in Catholic Europe too. It was a slight scandal at the time and may have slightly affected the course of history.
I heard there was a scuffle or something about it
a tiff. one might say, a schism
Well, no need to mince words. It was a kerfuffle.
yeah, some people liked it, but some people didn't like it
Twas a right kerfuffle
A lot of parallels to today, both were times of increased information to the masses.
This whole thing is bullshit
That's a scam
Fuck the Church
Here's 95 reasons why
Oh hi Mark
Theses, not feces
I know about Luther. I'm from the protestant north of Germany, I'm quite interested in history and the 31st of October is a public holiday in a few states in the north.
>Martin Luther, (; German: [ˈmaʁtiːn ˈlʊtɐ] (listen); 10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German professor of theology, priest, author, composer, Augustinian monk, and a seminal figure in the Reformation. Luther was ordained to the priesthood in 1507. He came to reject several teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church; in particular, he disputed the view on indulgences. Luther proposed an academic discussion of the practice and efficacy of indulgences in his Ninety-five Theses of 1517.
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In Germany you pay a church tax, you have to opt out.
Well you have to opt in, then opt out.
Problem is you are opted in by your parents as an infant. When you can't really make that decision yourself.
Since my family is full of atheists and I was never baptized, I never have to pay any church tax.
And if you move to Germany later in life, you need to be very careful when filling the registration papers and not enter your religious background if you don't actually practice Christianity.
> Problem is you are opted in by your parents as an infant. When you can't really make that decision yourself.
Lol could the grift be any more apparent?
What a nightmare.
Though I guess in the USA we subsidize all these tax exempt ~~religions~~ **businesses**.
Yeah, in the US everyone pays a church tax (indirectly) and we can’t opt out
Which is rather fucked up if you think about it.
How hard is it to get excommunicated? If you're leaving the church you might as well do it in style.
Excommunication basically only happens if you hold yourself out to be a priest/are a priest and teach things that aren't according to Catholic canon.
And [this one particular 9 year old rape victim](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Brazilian_girl_abortion_case)'s mother who got her an abortion (but not the rapist stepfather, that wasn't as bad)
Also the doctors who saved her life by performing the abortion. Much worse crimes than raping children in a priest's eyes. After all, a priest will never abort a fetus, but sometimes those altar boys can look so hot in their little outfits...
The current Australian cardinal has covered up and been involved discussing child abuse acts. When he was called to trial he fled to the Vatican where he stayed for a few years and ignored Australia's request for him to come back and face trial.
This goes all the way to the pope..
Edit. He eventually came back in 2019, went to trail, found guilty of a few things. Spent a year in prison. Is still a cardinal.
George pell. Fuck you
“Come home Cardinal Pell” line is such a great hook.
I know what video this is without clicking the link, but I will click it anyway and watch the whole thing and get the song stuck in my head for the next week because Tim Minchin is a bloody national treasure.
You know there is a problem when you meet multiple people who have been abused. I have met people randomly, from different cities and different professions. And I wasn't even looking
What do you need an appointment for? Can't you just send a letter that more or less say "I quit"?
Haha "laughs in German"
Do you have a permit for that?
Always, In duplicate
That's silly. Germans don't laugh
We do, but only in the cellar
And not on Sunday. That’s quiet hours.
'Spose that's better than what the Austrians do in there.
It's a bit complicated in Germany because you have to do it via the state and not the church. I think you have to do it in person.
After the 2 Kaiserreich was founded in 1874 the Protestant and Catholic Church still were owner of huge parts of the land and had their own states. They wanted compensation for loosing independence and their land. The Kaiserreich then made a deal with them and agreed to collect a church tax from the members of their confession and handing it over to the church and this is still done by the state today. If you're a member of the Protestant or Catholic Church a small amount of your income is automatically deducted deducted and given to your church.
Here is a better and more accurate description of the history of the tax. Please check it out.
No. The Kaiserreich of 1874 has very little to do with this.
For further reading: https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/636978/b6ce2bd2af07b0dd6ecedad1f4e429e6/WD-10-094-18-pdf-data.pdf
The BRD is not a successor of the Kaiserreich (even if some laws are still based on older laws). You mixed something up here.
The church already lost most of their overall lost territory in 1803 (Säkularisierung). The tax was first implemented in 1821 in Prussia and later in other states; one by one. The church saw this taxation of its individual members, instead of being payed directly from the state treasury, as a breach of contract and was not happy, by the way!
The Kaiserreich of 1874 and the Weimars Republic of 1919 continued the existing laws. The Weimar Republic was not a de jure successor of the Kaiserreich and was not obligated to hold up any contracts. They did continue many laws, anyway.
In 1941 the church tax was ended. In 1946 it was started again by the BRD in accordance with the Grundgesetz Art. 140. This article refers to the 1919 Weimars Republic‘s constitution article 138.
It could be ended again, if there was the political will to do so. One would have to make changes to the Grundgesetz, which is not trivial, but entirely possible.
In addition to the church tax the Catholic Church is also payed 595 million on top each year for various reasons.
Almost everything the Churches do (childcare, medical institutions etc.) is also payed for by the state by 90 percent or more.
The main income of the German Catholic Churches are their real estates. It is the largest real estate owner in Germany with 8250 square kilometers of real estate (estimated to be worth between 200 and 270 billion).
No one knows how much money the Church has really accrued in Germany or how high the total income really is, because every Diocese is it’s own individual entity and they don’t have to make their accounts public.
That's awful. I just never went back to church and that's it.
That's not even the worst part as you can get out of that relatively easy, although it can sometimes bring unpleasant surprises for foreigner who move here and sometimes don't even know that they're officially a part of a church. It's worse that they have separate labour laws and are allowed to discriminate against divorced people, non members of the church and they're a huge employer in the medical field for example.
Wow, that seems very out of character with Germany, and for a developed country, for that matter. It is clearly weird because one wouldn't associate Germany with the catholic church, but clearly I don't know shit. It sucks that lack separation between state and churches is still going on the 21st century.
Edit: added Lack
The Federal Republic of Germany is seen as the same legal entity as the second Kaiserreich and these contracts have to be obeyed(pacta sunt servanda). Sadly it is what it is.
I believe the German catholic church is the richest only second to the vatican itself... so yeah in everyday life secularity except for the church tax is rather wide here but I think even ourselves underestimate the number of religious Germans. Because you do not really wear it on your sleeves
edit: just looked it up. the diocese cologne is alone more worth than the Vatican...
I have very secular German friends who were baptized as babies and who don't want to renounce catholicism because (according to them) most kindergartens are catholic, so it's hard to find a kindergarten for your kids if you have renounced catholicism.
Same with doctors, I believe. Something about it being easier to find jobs at some hospitals if you're officially catholic.
And, as it stands, the Catholic Church gets a cut of the salary of every Catholic in Germany, no matter how lapsed. So they get a lot of money, which is not proportional to the actual faith of the people officially Clinton as catholic.
You are absolutely right. Somewhere above someone said that the catholic church as an employee (health care and kindergarten are big here) discriminate against non catholics and even more. not long ago there was a case where a kindergartner(?!) was let go because she had an unmarried child. although i think that your friends are part of a big group which stays in church out of ‚fear‘ to have disadvanteges in certain cases, I am kind of ambivalent regarding the number of people who do not leave church out of convenience because it is opt out and not opt in in Germany, if you were baptised as an infant... I just think there are a lot more religious people here than one might think
This was a major issue in Ireland also till very recently (2018). A large proportion of the population has no religious belief, but until very recently schools could still pick pupils according to if they were baptized or not. If you wanted your child in the best local school and they were managed by the local church (most still are) you got them baptized.
It's still allowed for "minority" religions - ie non-catholic.
I have a similar experience in Singapore. Here, Muslims have to follow Muslim law for marriages and inheritance matters. I’m no longer a Muslim but I have to officially renounce it to no longer have it apply to me. I’m thankfully not married so only the inheritance law applies but there are consequences in that regard if I choose to renounce that religion.
It’s so fucking archaic but it’s unfortunately not going away because the majority of the people it applies to support it since it is their law and non-Muslims technically have an option to renounce it. However, it adds a burden to me to do so. In addition to the bureaucratic cost, a Muslim parent can’t pass their entire estate to their non-Muslim descendant via a will since the will can only be used for a portion of the estate. The rest is automatically apportioned by Islamic law.
Edit: run-on sentence
that is very complex when it includes inheritance law. wow. thanks for sharing.
I think you mean "lack of separation"
Things are a little more complicated. We need to sign some official paperwork as we still have to pay church tax (8% of our income tax on top if everything else we pay) and thus need it to prove to the Finanzamt (our IRS) that we left the church and thus don’t have to pay for it anymore. Our employers also need to know that because church tax is automatically deducted off our income.
Churches still have a shitton of influence in Germany, hence why there has been no push to make churches collect their fees themselves. IMO they should be legally considered a club not too different from from a Bowling club…
It's a bit similar in Austria, you just get signed up for it at birth by your parents. We have a stupid church tax as well thanks to Hitler, so if you don't get out it will cost you.
You basically need to go to a town hall, provide some sort of proof you are member of a church (membership number, birth certificate,..) and an ID, and say you are leaving. It also costs like 2€, final fuck you I guess.
I just googled it though and apparently it's possible online now as well and that is free, that's neat, might be a Covid thing.
Wow, thanks Hitler.
The more I hear about this guy the less I like him
He did kill Hitler though
But he also killed the guy that killed Hitler
It's a Möbius loop of hitler murder
Apparently that doesn't work any more since ~2010.
I learned yesterday you can't really quit, at best they make a note in their register that you 'have expressed a desire to leave' or 'do not consider yourself to be catholic', but they still regard you a catholic and are counted.
(because baptism leaving some permanent magic mark on the soul...)
In some countries, like Germany, as long as you are registered as Catholic, you get deducted an extra tax that goes directly to the Catholic Church. So they might make a note next to your name or whatever and insist that your soul is claimed forever, but in some countries there is a functional and economic difference between a lapsed Catholic and someone who officially renounced catholicism.
Looks like these guys meet every year at Vatican to discuss this shit. Pedophiles seem to be thriving in this environment.
They always thrive in these environments. There is a reason why these pedophile scandals always happen in the church, boy scouts and similar institutions. Pedophilia is often related to feelings of power over someone weaker and they already have that in these positions and you also have easy access to children.
Predators surprisingly act like predators. Lions, cheetahs and hyenas hunt where gazelles congregate. So waterholes, oases, boy scout troops, sunday school and chuck e cheeses.
It’s also weird how long this stuff has gone on for. My grandmother repeats stories, a lot. One I hear a lot is that when she was a kid, her dad warned her to stay away from the priests. Because it was common of them to shine there shoes, and try to look up girls skirts.
How true is this? I dunno. This was 70 years ago we’re talkin. I believe her dad warned her of this, but how possible it is, I dunno.
I had an uncle that told me about physical abuse at a local orphanage. A few years later a bunch of sex crimes were uncovered there.
The crimes the church is responsible for are mind blowing. The world wide scope is hard to put into words.
I've said this before, but it's wild that the Qanon people and all the other right-wing conspiracy theorists are convinced that Democrats are part of an international cabal of murderous pedophiles despite the total lack of evidence, meanwhile an *actual* international cabal of murderous pedophiles has been operating openly for centuries.
> telling him that he needed to be a good Catholic and withhold the publications.
Funny that doing what Jesus would do meant he was a bad Catholic...
In Australia the former Prime Minister, Julia Gillard (1) instigated a Royal Commission into child sexual abuse in institutions (this is done via a Letters Patent to HM Queen Elizabeth).
Once a Royal Commission commences it cannot be stopped by anyone. Not the Prime Minister nor the Governor General. Thus when Catholic Prime Minister Tony Abbott (1), leader of Australia's coalition of conservative parties defeated Ms Gillard and became Prime Minister there was nothing he could do to stop the *Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse* despite what his ill-informed fellow Catholics implored him to do..
The stories of the routine cover-ups and the various institutions -- including the various Australian Dioceses and Archdioceses protecting known offenders and relocating them to new parishes to rape more children -- is just galling in its collusion, callous disregard, inhumanity and monstrosity.
I've had, in a professional capacity, some exposure of investigations into the nature of the rampant offending by the clergy. These people are the devil incarnate.
1. Julia Gillard is best known around the world for her famous speech about misogyny in response to then Opposition Leader Tony Abbott.
I live in Mexico, being catholic here its like being Mexican, one goes with the other, but lately people have been opting out of the church due to all the scandals, for the moment it's just people who have studied or live within the cities but it's starting to get out of the hands of the church, personally speaking it's really hard to go to any church knowing what they did, stepping into a church feels sometimes like a stepping into a concentration camp to worship a God of peace.
Here's a few of the scandals they have been into on Mexico:
- The oldest and biggest church on the country have a torture chamber inside an underground floor where hundreds of thousands of indigenous people where tortured and killed, this its sadly incredibly common in the biggest churches through the nation.
- The walls of many churches are forbbiden to be altered in any way, this its due to being common practice of the nuns to abort when pregnant and stuff the remains inside the walls, one time an earthquake make one of those walls fall and docens of baby skulls fell from inside said wall, it was big news a few years ago.
- Child molestation cases became incredibly common, to the point where the church started having trouble to keep it quiet and it resulted in them even going to the TV trying to cover it all up.
- Most of the catholic churches here are incredibly wealthy, the "Catedral de México" has its roof decorated with hundreds of large pieces of solid gold which it's common, it also has thousands of small pieces made of solid gold as decoration through all of the church, which is also common, and they still have the guts to tell people who can barely pay rent to pay for ailments or services because "god needs it", and they are not cheap, we are talking about 300 bucks for a crappy 30 min funeral service, the prices can easy reach 10000 if you want something better than that.
My rant could go on for a while, it's onestly baffling to me that anyone goes to the catholic churches.
Oh yes, the cover up is real. To be honest, most institutions work that way, and cover up is often at least attempted. Religion has the “advantage” that it is virtually unregulated, making this a lot easier.
Religion has the advantage that members think anything they do in support of it is morally right.
No one covering up tax fraud for Walmart thinks they're doing the right thing.
I know several men in Cincinnati who were molested as children. They went on to become severe, yet functional, substance abusers. I lost contact with them years ago, so I do not know their status today. These abusers create a pattern of life long instability, and there will never be enough justice on this earth for what they've done.
I heard that the Catholic Church's wrongdoings and cover ups in the 90s made a lot of Irish people to stop being religious, too. (edit: to clarify, I know there is a long history of wrongdoing, I mean that a lot of it came into the public eye in the 90s)
Actually just looked it up because it seemed irresponsible to just post hearsay like that. No reason is given, but there has been a large increase in non religious people since 1991.
>The total of those with no religion (including - atheists and agnostics), stood at 481,388 in 2016, an increase of 73.6 per cent on the 2011 total of 277,237. There has been a seven fold increase in this category since 1991, when the total stood at just 67,413.
>cover ups in the 90s made a lot of Irish people to stop being religious, too.
When we visited Ireland back in 2016 almost everything we toured the guides talked mad shit about how fucked the Church treated the Irish people.
[Behind the Bastards] Part One: How The Catholic Church Murdered Ireland's Babies 🅴 #behindTheBastards
https://podcastaddict.com/episode/125072403 via @PodcastAddict
Robert Evans is the one really doing God's work.
Sophie, you know what won't murder Ireland's babies and sex workers?
To be fair, talking shit is an irish pastime.
I was in a cab in Dublin once to see U2 (I’m Canadian) and the cabbie spent the whole ride shitting on Bono. Lol.
Bono is a pox.
Well, he is the worlds largest piece of shit.
What did Bono do? (Genuinely asking)
Jokes aside, he does a lot of good charity work. But his personality, he always manages to come off as a massively self-important douche.
That's what I always understood.
is he charitable because he's just an awesome guy who wants to help.
Is he charitable because it helps build his brand only.
I think he's charitable because he genuinely wants to help. But he can't stop himself from talking about his chariting.
The fucker wouldn't top clapping
>Bono, while playing a gig in Glasgow, got the whole crowd to be silent and then began slowly clapping his hands. The whole place was quiet except for the rhythmic clapping…
> After a short period Bono spoke: "Everytime I clap my hands, a child in Africa dies".
> Suddenly, from the back of the venue a voice broke out in thick Scottish brogue, ending the silence as it echoed across the crowd, the voice shouted “Well stop clapping, ya twat!!”
There's a South Park episode where various characters are trying to break the world record for largest unbroken human feces, and it turns out that Bono is revealed as the record because he's a single sentient nugget of poop.
He didn't break the record. He IS the record!
To be fair the Church has fucked with *a lot* of different people. Its kind of what they do.
They're a pillar of colonialism.
They have been for centuries.
From the Irish to the Americas, Africa to Australia, they've extracted wealth from the people and committed genocide to entrench their power. The Catholic church is one of the most evil institutions in the world.
They basically ran the country. Did shit like slave camps for unmarried mothers, child trafficking, and huge amounts of abuse.
Irish guy checking in. I recently found out I have a half brother who was sold, yes sold for adoption by nuns. All paperwork destroyed. We've tried the genealogy DNA thing but no luck finding him yet.
Because of those evil scum my family is left wondering everyday where my brother ended up. Apparently my grandad got into it with the local priest who wanted to have my mum imprisoned in a church run laundry, my grandad refused.
I hope you find him. On a semi-related note, I have a half brother whom I have never met in my entire life because my mother’s psycho-Baptist ex-husband ran off with their son after their divorce. I tried contacting him on Facebook telling him who I am…but he deleted his entire account in response to that so I’m assuming his father filled his head with lies about my mother.
Ireland here, it's a lot better than it used to be but the church still owns the vast majority of schools and they use those to indoctrinate children.
They should be forced to give them to the State as remuneration for the child - and adult, see [Magdalene Laundries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland?wprov=sfla1) - abuse and cover-ups.
They still have a ridiculous grip on the State though, see the [maternity hospital](https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/thousands-attend-protest-rally-against-church-ownership-of-national-maternity-hospital-40582876.html) as an example.
how are they still allowed to control schools and hospitals after what has come to light? Why do none of the politicians dig in on this for votes
Because their voterbase were all educated by the Church.
IIRC the Irish migration in the 90s were heavily related to the way the church ran orphanages in the country. Basically I think that is believed or known to be the reason for sinnead oconnors SNL moment tearing the picture of the pope up
How many is some?
More than one, I bet
Fewer than all, probably.
Likely less than most but more than few
One person on Twitter
Please don't turn to Evangelicals Please don't turn to Evangelicals
Evangelicals are not as much of a thing in Canada. Most likely Anglican or something.
Maybe not in your part of Canada, but in Alberta evangelical christians are very much a thing. I was was forced to attend a multi-campus evangelical mega church in Calgary when I was a kid. It was was totally insane. I would not recommend converting, even from Catholicism.
The churches are way more serious in saskatchewan than Alberta. I went to a funeral once there and it reminded me of those mega churches in the US.
Those megachurches are infecting more of the country than people think.
One of them in Winnipeg was actively and repeatedly flouting the Covid gathering rules, and as far as I can tell only got the most token of slaps on the wrist for it.
Same with the Grace Life Church in Alberta. The paster was arrested.
>Same with the Grace Life Church in Alberta. The paster was arrested.
At least thats *something*.
The one here has recieved a few small fines, but is still refusing to pay them.
Laughs nervously in southern United States specifically Texas
Lots of born agains in BC, a fair group of LDS as well. The vehement Christians move closer to evangelicalism the more criticism their religion catches, as a matter of pride (ironically), and counter movement. I mean hell, the conservative party has been infiltrated by their ilk, evidenced by the 63 CON MP votes against criminalizing fundamentalist conversion treatment.
Random add to this discussion- my fathers side (not very close to them) were latter day saints - very devout I remember going to church/Sunday school my preschool was Christian- when I was 5 my brother mother and I moved away after my parents divorced when I was 2, never was religious after that (short story is I learned that Noah didn't let unicorns on the arc and I decided at 3 or 4 if they didn't allow a beautiful creature like that there was no God). It wasn't until I hit 30 and was listening to some YouTube stories about cults that I realized that the lds or at least the sect my dad's side grew up in/on was one of those (they lived in a commune and every thing) and how bloody close I was to being indoctrinated into that life. It definitely scares me thinking about it even now.
> I learned that Noah didn't let unicorns on the arc and I decided at 3 or 4 if they didn't allow a beautiful creature like that there was no God
Who knew God could be defeated by a unicorn? xD
Yes, living in Vancouver I was approached by many LDS while on the sky train. They seem to have a pretty big presence there.
Man I live in Ohio right down the street from where touch down Jesus used to live before God destroyed it with his wrath. It was a giant ridiculous Jesus statue outside a mega church (the one on the news for encouraging attendance during the pandemic) with a goofy touchdown pose. About ten years back when the church was being accused of smuggling drugs, which happens alot with these churches, the statue was struck by lightning and exploded with a ridiculous amount of force, thought it was an earthquake at first when I was at work. If that wasn't a sign from god I don't know what is. Another local mega church pastor was like a mega pimp, shit is ridiculous.
Another reasons why I hate those big churches, I really feel like churches were meant to be small, only a few hundred at most.
Sometimes I read stuff like this and I wonder if Americans appreciate just how bonkers a place your country is. Not even in a bad way (well sometimes) but just like wow y'all really go full send on anything and everything.
Touchdown Jesus.... drug-smuggling churches... what a country.
Seriously, though, we’re just incredibly desensitized.
America is the Florida of the world
What’s up with the drug smuggling in big evangelical churches? This is the second time I’ve heard about it. First time was local to my home town and involved. a Christian high school. Like, is that why they always seem weirdly upbeat?
Up here most people that would leave the Church over this were likely just nominally Catholic anyhow. At least my guess would be that many of them are just using this to cut final ties with religion entirely.
When I was a child I was placed in a Catholic elementary school. Select boys were encouraged to be alter boys and even some like myself that weren't baptized. The priest would invite me over to his house on several occasions and take any opportunity to slap or touch my bum. He also had arranged to watch a horror movie with me alone at his house although it never happened. My parents were excited that the priest was inviting me over. Luckily I never experienced more than this.
Later when I graduated high school I got a call from a detective following up on accusations of molestation by this particular priest by another boy in my class. I gave an interview and then never heard anything again until I learned the priest had originally been moved to my elementary school after similar accusations in another country. He was then moved to Germany and nothing ever came of the charges.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-final-straw-some-catholic-canadians-renounce-church-as-residential-school-outrage-grows-1.5500925) reduced by 86%. (I'm a bot)
> EDMONTON - Outrage directed at the Catholic Church for its role in Canada's residential school system continues, with more churches allegedly set ablaze and faithful followers questioning their loyalty to the institution.
> A growing number of Canadians are distancing themselves from the Catholic Church, which administrated an estimated 70 per cent of Canada's residential schools.
> Now, in light of the finding of hundreds of unmarked graves at former residential school sites around the country, there is growing outrage towards the church, resulting in alleged arson attacks on Catholic and Anglican churches in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, and Alberta.
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/ofyii0/the_final_straw_some_catholic_canadians_renounce/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~586910 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Church**^#1 **Catholic**^#2 **Hardaker**^#3 **Indigenous**^#4 **people**^#5
I was raised Catholic. Strict, but not over the top. I spent two high school years in the seminary. Nothing "bad" happened to me, nor did I hear of anything happening to any of the other students while I was there. However, the general atmosphere of the place was so utterly toxic that I not only left after the second year, but also ended my association with the church altogether. I became convinced and still am that anyone who thrives in such an environment cannot be a good person. There are many good people who struggle, but none that can thrive.
Can you expand on the "toxic" thing?
I can't speak for them, but I pretty much had a similar experience. The "toxic atmosphere" for me was severe homophobia (self hate for being pansexual), taking money from the poor (I lived in poverty but my mum was expected to give 10% of her income to the church), telling me my depression and anxiety was my own fault for not being close enough to God, looking down on my mother because she dared to get a divorce (my dad was an alcoholic) - for me, all of those things felt extremely toxic and I did not want to be a part of it.
Yup, this is basically correct. I remember being incredibly depressed throughout my childhood with an extremely overbearing Catholic mother.
The layers of brainwashing are still being unraveled to this day. I have not been a practicing Catholic for over 13 years and it still freaks me out. I’m marrying a non-Catholic woman and am having a non-religious wedding. My mother has been losing her shit over it, even going as far as threatening to not come to my wedding calling it a “glorified party with too much emphasis on worldly items”. She had made my personal life her business even though I’m 33 years old and haven’t lived at home for years.
It’s caused so much stress in my relationship with my fiancé as well. It came to the point where I was ready to burn all my bridges when my fiancé pulled me back and told me not to.
I have sworn to her that if the toxic shit from my family continues, they will never know my children. They will not exist in my life.
I’m getting angry now just typing this shit out. It’s caused me so many years of stress, all I have left is bitterness.
Sorry! I grew up in an evangelical fundamentalist household and had a similar experience.
Family is just people.you grew.up.around. if your mother is that toxic you should cut ties.
Too many people treat family as something that just has to be there no matter what. They abuse it and you then just expect you to forgive them. Your mother from your description is an abusive controlling ass that is hurting you mentally and emotionally.
My feeling is you'll be upset I'm the short term and much happier in the long run if you cut ties especially before kids come into the equation. Once they do the guilting will intensify. Watched it happen within my own family.
Your fiance's heart is in a good place but people with functional families don't understand the damage a dysfunctional one can cause.
Good family goes both ways. What you described your mother doing is not good family. If you can afford therapy, makes sure you and your wife get it so your marriage and future family can be the best it can be.
Grew up in the church, catholic middle school followed by all boys catholic military high school. Experience was the same. Absolutely the worst environment I’ve ever been in, and I hate the church to this day.
I was sent to a Baptist school in the US Midwest for three late primary school years and the first two secondary school years. The environment was inconsistently applied authoritarianism (lots of prominent families attended the Baptist church attached to the school, and were wealthy patrons, so you had this hierarchical small-town creepy feeling everywhere). Naturally it had all of the trans/homophobia and misogyny you could imagine. Edit: It was also extremely, uncomfortably suburban and white. I remember conferences as a high school freshman when my English teacher told my parents and I that she hoped God would cause something horrible to happen to me so that I would "come back to him," and my parents agreeing with her. Man, that one hurt.
I was too young to know any better, but looking back I feel like I was robbed of the character-building experiences I would have had if I'd just gone to public school. I begged to leave and even wrote a paper to my folks about the academic college credit transfer opportunities in the public school system, but I found out later the only reason they let me finish my secondary schooling at a public high school was because one of their pastors at their Baptist church told them they should - my carefully crafted paper meant nothing to them. My parents had two daughters while I was in high school, and when they grew up, they started them at this Baptist school during late primary school and did not let them leave.
Afterward I began to wonder how people who had actually experienced God could make such a bigoted, authoritarian church/school, or how they could react in such petty, servile ways like my parents did. They claimed to have been changed after their conversions but they were just cruel authoritarians who now had the blessing of their own consciences. I never looked back on religion of any sort after I left.
This is the most interesting comment in the whole thread
^Former American Catholic, no longer practicing for many reasons. Including the fact that my mother (who had been a devout catholic elementary school teacher for decades) was robbed of her pension plan so the church could settle a few lawsuits by former altar-boys who'd been raped by priests decades previously.
Keep in mind that this catholic diocese has thousands of acres of undeveloped land across multiple states in the area which are worth a LOT of money. Instead of selling a small portion of that land to cover their court settlement fees, they chose to drain the pension plan of their teachers who gave their lives to educating the future generations.
My mother retired from teaching with essentially nothing left in her pension plan. If not for my father's retirement savings she'd likely be broke and penniless by this point.
That was the final straw for me - that church will NEVER see another dime of my money or time/effort ever again.
Wow.. I’m truly sorry for your mom, and what scumbags those people are..
People don’t realize the extent of the land holdings of the Catholic Church. They are the single largest landowner on the planet, with more than 70 million hectares (over 270,000 square miles). The State of Texas is only 261,914 square miles.
The diocese where I live in Florida is comprised of 10 counties. In just one of those counties, the Church owns almost 4500 acres of real estate, with a just value of around $143,000,000. The taxable value is around $2.5M for things like undeveloped residential lots I think.
Across the rest of the diocese, I’m sure it’s similar or worse.
This is probably just the beginning of this saga of dirty laundry
Probably? Something something little boys
The church's dirty laundry pile is older than civilization.
Yeah I've seen some people acting like it's a surprise the church would do something so horrible.
But like if we started listing every fucked up thing the church has done *that we know of* it'd take days..
There's a myth of a shapeshifting demon called an Incubus that would rape women in their sleep. Many Nuns were attacked by these demons who disguised themselves as priests.
Yes, demons disguised as priests.
Demons that are obviously not the priests, because that would be preposterous.
We have days
I think the point is there hasn't been a movement like this in Canada yet. And since it's gotten momentum it probably isn't going to go away. Especially as recent discoveries are the result of a program to investigate what happened to indigenous here. It's happening and will continue
The church has already lost a lot of influence here, going back to the Quiet Revolution in the 60s. At least that's the case in Quebec. I'm not sure the Catholic church held as much sway in the rest of Canada, aside from these schools.
This is more like another nail in the coffin.
It's been a long time since Sinead O'Connor tore up a picture of the Pope on SNL, but baby steps, baby steps.
She lost her career and her life basically, and does she ever look prescient now.
Even before this I read that the Catholic Church was shrinking so fast that for every new Catholic six people leave the church.
Worldwide, or in Canada? I hear they're doing a big push in Africa to offset their decline in Europe and North America.
Worldwide. Even though they are trying to get more followers in Africa, Evangelicals are doing much better than them.
So people in Africa are like the humans in the Alien vs Predator movie: it doesn't matter who wins, they lose.
So they are doing what big tobacco is doing aswell? Trying to recoup losses in Africa. I really do not like this exploitative sentiment those organisations have, "oh its getting harder in areas where people got disillusioned by our crimes lets go somewhere people don't know as much about us yet.
A majority of the hardline atheists I know were raised catholic.
Somebody had a quote about how nothing creates more atheists than religion.
Similar scandals in Ireland have caused a whole generation move away from the church, glad to see its crumbling abroad also
When Gandhi met the pope he told him, “I love your Christ but not your Christians because your Christians are nothing like your Christ”. I’m wondering how many people are abandoning the Catholic Church for a different faith as opposed to abandoning creationism altogether.
Pffft. The child rapes didn’t do it, they needed to see actual evidence of child MURDER. How is THIS the “last straw?”
It's not like it's the first child murders either, they've been digging up septic tanks full of child skeletons in Ireland under work camps that were owned and run by the Catholic Church. The last straw was *local* child murder.
Local things are usually more impactful. Think of how you would feel if you heard of unmarked child graves being discovered in Indonesia, compared to them being discovered in your state.
It's natural to be more appalled by something closer to you, though you would have hoped that the global nature of the Catholic Church meant it hit home wherever it was.
Agreed, I'm far less likely to be concerned about things happening on the other side of the world. Also agreed that I like to think if a social club I was a member of was the one committing the atrocities I might get at least a little worked up over it though, no matter where they were doing it.
Pfft. My ancestors left the Catholic Church before it was cool. ^I’m ^Lutheran
Unfortunately the Lutheran church has it's own issues. Grew up LCMS, experienced some fucked up shit. My pastor definitely preyed on children and took steps to help cover up crimes of other people who preyed on children.
A friend of mine was actively shunned in her church when her boyfriend told everyone they had sex. She had to deal with a lot of mistreatment after that. The guy faced no repercussions. I don’t think the church was the same for her after that.
I have a similar story. I went to a Lutheran high school, a guy got a girl pregnant (they were a couple) and the girl was kicked out of the school while the guy was allowed to stay. She had the baby and they ended up getting married and still are afaik. They were good people too, just made a "mistake" but only the person that was gonna "show" her sin was cast out.
Have you got some extra theses laying around?
The catholic church lost most of its people in the 60s on Québec after a century of controlling their lives.
“Last morally depraved cover up….promise…..”
Raping kids wasn't?
Its not a proud distinction, but for a certain number of people yeah. Rape stuff can be assigned to bad apples whereas mass child graves starts to look more like institutional genocide. Child rape was certainly a concern but this could be the last straw for people leaving the church as the article asserts